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Literally no bodies have ever been discovered/found. I actually read the Government report that came out years(!) before the mass hysteria on them happened. Most Canadians have not or didn’t bother to even read the section of the report. Many still do not know the report even existed.
All they found were possible signals from ground radar. Which can be created by any type of extra density in the ground. Somehow the media and one Indegenous spokeperson used the term “mass graves,” and everyone and their dog just parroted it into existence thanks to social media.
Feds fucked up because they upped the hysteria for virtue signaling points a couple of years ago despite their own report not saying this. Because of course they did.
They have been trying to find bodies for over two years straight and nothing. These news did not get propagated as loudly as the original incorrect claims. Seems few here in Canada want to touch the real story than they did the other, out of fear of hurting people’s feelings or perhaps of getting cancelled. So many, many people still are not up to date on it. Despite not being new anymore.
Not religious at all, or even a conservative but I cannot help thinking that people burnt some Historical buildings to the ground because they are overly emotional, can’t read or are the types that never bother looking up primary sources like the Fed’s own report.
Talk about msinformation.
To mod: This is literally NOT misinformation. Do you want the link to the document in question? I quote articles that touch on this. Only because you or most Canadians did not actually read the actual report from the Feds, it does not make it misinformation. Maybe an unpopular opinion but NOT misinformation. Since unpopular does not = incorrect.
All they found were possible signals from ground radar. Which can be created by any type of extra density in the ground. Somehow the media and one Indegenous spokeperson used the term “mass graves,” and everyone and their dog just parroted it into existence thanks to social media.
Let’s look at some facts that hold even in cases where the records are missing and the witnesses are all dead, then.
The heyday of the residential schools was the 1930s. Back then, there were no vaccines for childhood killer diseases like measles, mumps, rubella, and polio. Even well-treated white kids living at home often died from those. The kids at the residential schools were packed into dorms like sardines, often underfed, and under terrible stress even when they weren’t being actively abused and exploited. The conditions were perfect for the spread of disease, and perfect for a high mortality rate. Logically, many of those children must have died. Their bodies weren’t returned home, so they must have been buried at or near the schools (christianity and cremation had an uneasy relationship at the time, so alternative methods of dealing with the bodies are unlikely).
We don’t know whether all of the specific ground radar anomalies that have been located so far represent graves, it’s true, but the graves are out there somewhere. They didn’t just vanish.
(Whether burning down churches is an appropriate reaction to this history is a separate matter. I personally don’t believe that revenge is a useful thing, but I can understand the appeal of striking back in that way for people who don’t share that belief.)
It says: “The remains of more than 1,000 people, mostly children, have been discovered on the grounds of three former residential schools in two Canadian provinces since May.”
The claim that they were discovered is an absolute, blatant wrong or a lie by omission or the NYT are idiots. Spots on a ground radar reading dead children do not make. Does not stop them from making the false claim which then will be parroted down stream as fact. I do not expect people --most people-- who have not read the report or kept up with the objective facts to think otherwise. Despite it being not true. So people will see what I say and think that of course, the NYTimes has to be correct, when they are, in fact, not. I have no respect for Christianity or any religion, but I can see people’s pre-set dislike for Catholicism and its history of child molestation to blind them, too, from being objective. I mean, this is obvious to see to anyone that has eyes. I am not saying that there may not be graves, but that is no reason to straight up make up lies, either when there are no bodies after looking for them years based on imperfect ground radar readings.
Worth noting something that never talks about is the fact that many children just ran away and many, no number to go by, died in the process. This does not get touch as as a factor but it does get mentioned in some literature, but not like people ever bother to look anything up or do their own research, since most people are okay with being spoon fed narratives because, why not?
This one touches on the fact, there are surely dozens of others, some of which go into a tiny bit more detail, but this was the first one I found as I wrote this:
https://www.canada.ca/en/parks-canada/news/2020/09/the-residential-school-system.html
“Some children ran away from the schools in an effort to return home. Some died in the process.” Worth noting that if even, 1% died this way, that would be 1,500+ that would simply have vanished from history. Even at %.5, that would still be 750+ kids.
What you are creating is a strawman. The point of the of the issue, which is if they were mass graves… well, there were NOT. The actual Report makes no such claim. The report does not indicate ANY bodies, at all, 0, zip. Anyone who has worked or knows about how ground radars works KNOWS that some blip on the scan, that is very vague cannot and should not automatically be assume to be a body. Since there are many different factors that could create such anomalies. Jumping to the priest must have just killed them or cremating them or whichever other notion cannot be assume without thinking that children running way could also be a more likely reason. Albeit if I ever come across a solid stat of that number I will update it here at some point.
Let’s go through some stats, shall we, it estimated that about or at least 150,000+ children attended residential schools. Officially about 4,100 - 4,600 Died. That’s about 2.95%. Horribly to say, but not high for the time period. Rate was higher in reservations. In general, child mortality in Canada between 1830, one third of all children did not make it to their 5th birthday. For the rest of the 19th century it was 1 in 4. Clearly poverty is a problem, it always has been. Poverty was higher in Reservations because well, how do they feed themselves, there are entire papers writing on the dwindling economies of Native people due to a large myriad of factors, but not like pre-colonization was an utopia of no high child mortality rates. Anyone who thinks that is living in a world of denial or Presentism, which is the notion that we should use the standards and worldviews of today to apply to what people did or thought centuries or even 70 years ago. Which I see a lot of people do regarding a lot of issues these days. Which is silly. Plus it leads me to believe that those people never really have picked up serious academic sources.
It is a know fact, also stated in the report that those schools may have had some cemeteries, and a few (2) were found at an earlier date, albeit those were found in what could be considered local cemeteries. It could not be fully determined. Your so called-logic does not and will not explain the crazy mania that followed in 2020, years after the report had been available to the public years prior. Nobody cared. And when they finally did, they let rumors and incorrect statements build on a very anti-Canadian sentiment. The term “mass graves,” was incorrect and wrong for the whole time. The people that did not know anything devolved into a wave of virtue signaling and the people who knew better, said nothing. Including the Liberal Federal government, as a Liberal, that is a massive, almost extreme lack of honesty and transparency. Now, devolved to political bullshit since the Liberals will not correct their record, so it is mostly Conservative news that cover it, leaving other Lliberals under the assumption that it is a political hit job, or the like, which may be up to point. But the real fuck up here was the Liberals lying mostly by omission by not correcting the News, and under emphasizing a report that had come out around 2015 of their own accord. My guess, because they can get to virtue signal because they know most people will not seek primary sources. Because most people never do. Plus it is a complex and multifaceted issue.
Problem about this, is that people who have not read the report pretend they know better and will usually devolve the point to politics or misguided takes on history due to emotion or virtue signalling. I saw Native websites building on fake or incorrect stories on non-existent dead bodies or graves, or made up narratives based on incorrect readings, which is wrong. That is not alright with me when the facts were known so much before hand.
If people really give a shit, then we would be talking about the rampant sexual abuse that happen to Native children done by other, older native children at schools, more so than any done by the priests, but that would definitely would not fly well in our current woke culture where we don’t like to look at reality if it does reflect our already existing bias of: white man bad, held by many. Especially in some University circles.
Also, Wikipedia has a nicely laid out chart with sources of where they have and haven’t confirmed graves. Scroll down to Summary of suspected and confirmed gravesites.
That was never my claim. So, I do not know why you bring it up.
So, you just talked right past me. So no harm done, friend. My point is that churches were burnt by idiots who say, clearly did not read that Wikipedia article or just got read lies by newspapers. Seems weird to have to say this but the burning down of buildings is not okay. Specially if people are doing it for the wrong reasons.
As far as the Wikipedia article, it would be awesome that more people actually read that. The vast majority of people have not and apparently will not. If I go by the current stand of public opinion.
In a long answer to another post, I link to a NYC article that lies by omission and makes some outrageous claims, which millions of people may read and take as fact. Who then parrot it to others. Only because I am not religious, and I have no care for the Catholic church or its priests, it does not mean that I am okay with arson. Are you okay arson? I am not. High trust societies do not work well when people set fire to buildings because they are too lazy to read something as accessible as Wikipedia articles.
The fact the Liberal government does not correct the record either, does not help for misinformation to spread in order to tame the overly emotional. Cheers.
That has never been my claim. You are sadly projecting, since I did not say that. I literally posted that was not case in one of my other responses, that 2 were found. That is the actual record last time I checked within the context we are discussing. I would suggest you take the time to read the actual Report, you know, primary sources, I mean, it only came out in 2015, rather than whatever possible echo chamber you may use. Avoid main stream media, both from the Left and the Right. Nuance is your friend.
Violence is idiotic since violence, or arson in this case, can risk a never ending cycle of retribution. We are supposed to be a little more mature, not only as a society but as a country, especially today. People who think otherwise seem to be so self-centered to think that their shitty behavior will never be done to them in return.
It is a wild-goose chase where everyone loses due to the silly high moral virtue signaling horses of people who themselves pick very, very narrow bands of History in order to fuel their political ideologies. I see this at Universities and at some NGO’s all the time. Best way to win, is not to play at all. Albeit I care not for the Catholic church or any religion, the point here is that fanatics from all fronts are always inherently wrong although they make great puppets for others to use.
You cared enough to respond, friend. A little bit of self-awareness would go a long away here, if you really wanted to make that claim. LOL
Also, you need your eye sight checked, I never claimed that Residential Schools did not happen. Or the very least do tell others of what you are smoking if you think I said that. I never did. LOL
As far as “taking” a week, the reality is that I do not spend a lot of time social media, I have a real life with responsibilities, like most reasonable people do.
I have some free time this afternoon to link up some sources and write a bit, so I responded to you and to a number of other people in other subs. This can easily be verified.
The system we live in still uses violence to keep the rich on our throats. The same system is responsible for residential schools, but we’re supposed to be peaceful? Fuck that. I’m not burning any churches but I have no sympathy for oppressors getting what’s coming to them.
Link sources for what? Residential schools happened. Take your own advice and go find your own sources and stop downplaying the violence that you think we should turn a cheek to.
Pretty damning circumstantial evidence since it is confirmed at some of the schools. I understand the sensitivity of digging up likely native grave sites, but the true extent of this should be known.
The church was supposed to raise $25 million to pay survivors of residential schools, they claimed they couldn’t raise enough money, then they built new buildings worth many multiples of that. One is Saskatoon built during this time was worth $28.5 Million by itself.
So, I can see the thought process of “If you’re not going to build new buildings instead of paying your victims, we will take your buildings away”
Violence is not the way.
There are avenues that could be used. Even if difficult.
But I see your point. I totally see the Church on disagreeing on the specifics of payments. Because of course they would. However, it seems the Federal Government got utterly free from any fault, despite them being the ones to agree to the schools AND to the agreement stated below. So, according to your logic, are you going to agree that you should burn Parliament down via arson or other Federal buildings? And if so, when would you like that?
So disappointed for the Liberals not doing anything about this before or so soon after taking power back in Nov. 2015.
By Oct. 30, 2015, a final agreement was signed by the former deputy minister in what had been called Aboriginal and Northern Affairs Canada, freeing the Catholic entities of their financial obligations.
“Canada does hereby remise, release and forever discharge the Catholic entities, its directors, officers, shareholders, agents, lawyers, and employees, of and from all manners of actions, causes of action, suits, debts, dues, accounts, bonds whatsoever against the releasees,” it reads.
It continues: “Canada further covenants and agrees not directly or indirectly to join, assist, aid, or act in concert in any manner whatsoever with any person or entity in making any financial claim or demand whatsoever against the releasees.”
You are not logged in. However you can subscribe from another Fediverse account, for example Lemmy or Mastodon. To do this, paste the following into the search field of your instance: !canada@lemmy.ca
Literally no bodies have ever been discovered/found. I actually read the Government report that came out years(!) before the mass hysteria on them happened. Most Canadians have not or didn’t bother to even read the section of the report. Many still do not know the report even existed.
All they found were possible signals from ground radar. Which can be created by any type of extra density in the ground. Somehow the media and one Indegenous spokeperson used the term “mass graves,” and everyone and their dog just parroted it into existence thanks to social media.
Feds fucked up because they upped the hysteria for virtue signaling points a couple of years ago despite their own report not saying this. Because of course they did.
They have been trying to find bodies for over two years straight and nothing. These news did not get propagated as loudly as the original incorrect claims. Seems few here in Canada want to touch the real story than they did the other, out of fear of hurting people’s feelings or perhaps of getting cancelled. So many, many people still are not up to date on it. Despite not being new anymore.
Here are some who have:
https://winnipeg.ctvnews.ca/chief-says-excavation-of-manitoba-church-basement-found-no-evidence-of-human-remains-1.6525591
https://thecountersignal.com/breaking-residential-school-mass-grave-turned-out-be-be-underground-rocks-no-bodies-found/
https://nypost.com/2023/08/31/still-no-evidence-of-mass-graves-of-indigenous-children-in-canada/
Not religious at all, or even a conservative but I cannot help thinking that people burnt some Historical buildings to the ground because they are overly emotional, can’t read or are the types that never bother looking up primary sources like the Fed’s own report.
Talk about msinformation.
To mod: This is literally NOT misinformation. Do you want the link to the document in question? I quote articles that touch on this. Only because you or most Canadians did not actually read the actual report from the Feds, it does not make it misinformation. Maybe an unpopular opinion but NOT misinformation. Since unpopular does not = incorrect.
It is not a secret: https://nypost.com/2023/08/31/still-no-evidence-of-mass-graves-of-indigenous-children-in-canada/
https://www.dorchesterreview.ca/blogs/news/in-kamloops-not-one-body-has-been-found
Please reinstate. Thank you.
Let’s look at some facts that hold even in cases where the records are missing and the witnesses are all dead, then.
The heyday of the residential schools was the 1930s. Back then, there were no vaccines for childhood killer diseases like measles, mumps, rubella, and polio. Even well-treated white kids living at home often died from those. The kids at the residential schools were packed into dorms like sardines, often underfed, and under terrible stress even when they weren’t being actively abused and exploited. The conditions were perfect for the spread of disease, and perfect for a high mortality rate. Logically, many of those children must have died. Their bodies weren’t returned home, so they must have been buried at or near the schools (christianity and cremation had an uneasy relationship at the time, so alternative methods of dealing with the bodies are unlikely).
We don’t know whether all of the specific ground radar anomalies that have been located so far represent graves, it’s true, but the graves are out there somewhere. They didn’t just vanish.
(Whether burning down churches is an appropriate reaction to this history is a separate matter. I personally don’t believe that revenge is a useful thing, but I can understand the appeal of striking back in that way for people who don’t share that belief.)
Okay, so what you are really saying is that you did NOT read the actual report? Yes or No? Did you even know it even existed? Yes or No?
I do not blame you, most people have not. An they go blindly at what the main stream media says with 0 Academic research, although people should be more objective. Example: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/07/world/canada/mass-graves-residential-schools.html
It says: “The remains of more than 1,000 people, mostly children, have been discovered on the grounds of three former residential schools in two Canadian provinces since May.” The claim that they were discovered is an absolute, blatant wrong or a lie by omission or the NYT are idiots. Spots on a ground radar reading dead children do not make. Does not stop them from making the false claim which then will be parroted down stream as fact. I do not expect people --most people-- who have not read the report or kept up with the objective facts to think otherwise. Despite it being not true. So people will see what I say and think that of course, the NYTimes has to be correct, when they are, in fact, not. I have no respect for Christianity or any religion, but I can see people’s pre-set dislike for Catholicism and its history of child molestation to blind them, too, from being objective. I mean, this is obvious to see to anyone that has eyes. I am not saying that there may not be graves, but that is no reason to straight up make up lies, either when there are no bodies after looking for them years based on imperfect ground radar readings.
Worth noting something that never talks about is the fact that many children just ran away and many, no number to go by, died in the process. This does not get touch as as a factor but it does get mentioned in some literature, but not like people ever bother to look anything up or do their own research, since most people are okay with being spoon fed narratives because, why not?
This one touches on the fact, there are surely dozens of others, some of which go into a tiny bit more detail, but this was the first one I found as I wrote this: https://www.canada.ca/en/parks-canada/news/2020/09/the-residential-school-system.html “Some children ran away from the schools in an effort to return home. Some died in the process.” Worth noting that if even, 1% died this way, that would be 1,500+ that would simply have vanished from history. Even at %.5, that would still be 750+ kids.
This article from 2015 touches on only 12, and discusses 5: https://www.cbc.ca/news/indigenous/truth-reconciliation-commission-final-report-escapees-1.3364325
What you are creating is a strawman. The point of the of the issue, which is if they were mass graves… well, there were NOT. The actual Report makes no such claim. The report does not indicate ANY bodies, at all, 0, zip. Anyone who has worked or knows about how ground radars works KNOWS that some blip on the scan, that is very vague cannot and should not automatically be assume to be a body. Since there are many different factors that could create such anomalies. Jumping to the priest must have just killed them or cremating them or whichever other notion cannot be assume without thinking that children running way could also be a more likely reason. Albeit if I ever come across a solid stat of that number I will update it here at some point.
Let’s go through some stats, shall we, it estimated that about or at least 150,000+ children attended residential schools. Officially about 4,100 - 4,600 Died. That’s about 2.95%. Horribly to say, but not high for the time period. Rate was higher in reservations. In general, child mortality in Canada between 1830, one third of all children did not make it to their 5th birthday. For the rest of the 19th century it was 1 in 4. Clearly poverty is a problem, it always has been. Poverty was higher in Reservations because well, how do they feed themselves, there are entire papers writing on the dwindling economies of Native people due to a large myriad of factors, but not like pre-colonization was an utopia of no high child mortality rates. Anyone who thinks that is living in a world of denial or Presentism, which is the notion that we should use the standards and worldviews of today to apply to what people did or thought centuries or even 70 years ago. Which I see a lot of people do regarding a lot of issues these days. Which is silly. Plus it leads me to believe that those people never really have picked up serious academic sources.
It is a know fact, also stated in the report that those schools may have had some cemeteries, and a few (2) were found at an earlier date, albeit those were found in what could be considered local cemeteries. It could not be fully determined. Your so called-logic does not and will not explain the crazy mania that followed in 2020, years after the report had been available to the public years prior. Nobody cared. And when they finally did, they let rumors and incorrect statements build on a very anti-Canadian sentiment. The term “mass graves,” was incorrect and wrong for the whole time. The people that did not know anything devolved into a wave of virtue signaling and the people who knew better, said nothing. Including the Liberal Federal government, as a Liberal, that is a massive, almost extreme lack of honesty and transparency. Now, devolved to political bullshit since the Liberals will not correct their record, so it is mostly Conservative news that cover it, leaving other Lliberals under the assumption that it is a political hit job, or the like, which may be up to point. But the real fuck up here was the Liberals lying mostly by omission by not correcting the News, and under emphasizing a report that had come out around 2015 of their own accord. My guess, because they can get to virtue signal because they know most people will not seek primary sources. Because most people never do. Plus it is a complex and multifaceted issue.
Problem about this, is that people who have not read the report pretend they know better and will usually devolve the point to politics or misguided takes on history due to emotion or virtue signalling. I saw Native websites building on fake or incorrect stories on non-existent dead bodies or graves, or made up narratives based on incorrect readings, which is wrong. That is not alright with me when the facts were known so much before hand.
If people really give a shit, then we would be talking about the rampant sexual abuse that happen to Native children done by other, older native children at schools, more so than any done by the priests, but that would definitely would not fly well in our current woke culture where we don’t like to look at reality if it does reflect our already existing bias of: white man bad, held by many. Especially in some University circles.
Apologies for the long post.
This doesn’t change the stories of the survivors.
Also, Wikipedia has a nicely laid out chart with sources of where they have and haven’t confirmed graves. Scroll down to Summary of suspected and confirmed gravesites.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Indian_residential_school_gravesites
That was never my claim. So, I do not know why you bring it up.
So, you just talked right past me. So no harm done, friend. My point is that churches were burnt by idiots who say, clearly did not read that Wikipedia article or just got read lies by newspapers. Seems weird to have to say this but the burning down of buildings is not okay. Specially if people are doing it for the wrong reasons.
As far as the Wikipedia article, it would be awesome that more people actually read that. The vast majority of people have not and apparently will not. If I go by the current stand of public opinion. In a long answer to another post, I link to a NYC article that lies by omission and makes some outrageous claims, which millions of people may read and take as fact. Who then parrot it to others. Only because I am not religious, and I have no care for the Catholic church or its priests, it does not mean that I am okay with arson. Are you okay arson? I am not. High trust societies do not work well when people set fire to buildings because they are too lazy to read something as accessible as Wikipedia articles.
The fact the Liberal government does not correct the record either, does not help for misinformation to spread in order to tame the overly emotional. Cheers.
You cherry picked articles to claim that no bodies have been found anywhere.
Yeah, I’m quite ok with burning down the symbols of an oppressive organization. 🤷🏻♂️
I don’t care what your thoughts are on whether or not residential schools happened because they did.
I’ll agree with that last part, but did it really take you a week to come up with this weak response?
That has never been my claim. You are sadly projecting, since I did not say that. I literally posted that was not case in one of my other responses, that 2 were found. That is the actual record last time I checked within the context we are discussing. I would suggest you take the time to read the actual Report, you know, primary sources, I mean, it only came out in 2015, rather than whatever possible echo chamber you may use. Avoid main stream media, both from the Left and the Right. Nuance is your friend.
Violence is idiotic since violence, or arson in this case, can risk a never ending cycle of retribution. We are supposed to be a little more mature, not only as a society but as a country, especially today. People who think otherwise seem to be so self-centered to think that their shitty behavior will never be done to them in return.
It is a wild-goose chase where everyone loses due to the silly high moral virtue signaling horses of people who themselves pick very, very narrow bands of History in order to fuel their political ideologies. I see this at Universities and at some NGO’s all the time. Best way to win, is not to play at all. Albeit I care not for the Catholic church or any religion, the point here is that fanatics from all fronts are always inherently wrong although they make great puppets for others to use.
You cared enough to respond, friend. A little bit of self-awareness would go a long away here, if you really wanted to make that claim. LOL Also, you need your eye sight checked, I never claimed that Residential Schools did not happen. Or the very least do tell others of what you are smoking if you think I said that. I never did. LOL
As far as “taking” a week, the reality is that I do not spend a lot of time social media, I have a real life with responsibilities, like most reasonable people do.
I have some free time this afternoon to link up some sources and write a bit, so I responded to you and to a number of other people in other subs. This can easily be verified.
Have a great one.
Oh now you’re trying to move the goalposts.
The system we live in still uses violence to keep the rich on our throats. The same system is responsible for residential schools, but we’re supposed to be peaceful? Fuck that. I’m not burning any churches but I have no sympathy for oppressors getting what’s coming to them.
Link sources for what? Residential schools happened. Take your own advice and go find your own sources and stop downplaying the violence that you think we should turn a cheek to.
Pretty damning circumstantial evidence since it is confirmed at some of the schools. I understand the sensitivity of digging up likely native grave sites, but the true extent of this should be known.
I didn’t watch the video, because it was a video, but I would attribute at least some of the burnings to this:
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatoon/critics-blast-catholic-church-1.6086030
The church was supposed to raise $25 million to pay survivors of residential schools, they claimed they couldn’t raise enough money, then they built new buildings worth many multiples of that. One is Saskatoon built during this time was worth $28.5 Million by itself.
So, I can see the thought process of “If you’re not going to build new buildings instead of paying your victims, we will take your buildings away”
Violence is not the way. There are avenues that could be used. Even if difficult.
But I see your point. I totally see the Church on disagreeing on the specifics of payments. Because of course they would. However, it seems the Federal Government got utterly free from any fault, despite them being the ones to agree to the schools AND to the agreement stated below. So, according to your logic, are you going to agree that you should burn Parliament down via arson or other Federal buildings? And if so, when would you like that? So disappointed for the Liberals not doing anything about this before or so soon after taking power back in Nov. 2015.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-deal-catholic-church-fundraising-1.6557533
By Oct. 30, 2015, a final agreement was signed by the former deputy minister in what had been called Aboriginal and Northern Affairs Canada, freeing the Catholic entities of their financial obligations.
“Canada does hereby remise, release and forever discharge the Catholic entities, its directors, officers, shareholders, agents, lawyers, and employees, of and from all manners of actions, causes of action, suits, debts, dues, accounts, bonds whatsoever against the releasees,” it reads.
It continues: “Canada further covenants and agrees not directly or indirectly to join, assist, aid, or act in concert in any manner whatsoever with any person or entity in making any financial claim or demand whatsoever against the releasees.”