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I’m imposing that property on it because for the overwhelming majority of media that is absolutely the case.
I don’t see why this is such a necessary property of media? Arguably there could be more media inside peoples private homes and hard-drives that is not for sale than media that is for sale. On top of that, this kind of thing depends on how we define media, we can take more or less inclusive definitions of this term.
It should also be clear that the kinds of things that I’m talking about in my original post refers to more than just movies, music, games and software (despite me using “media” as a convenient example in my previous post).
If it’s for sale it’s something you do not mind other people seeing. My documents I do not sell because I don’t want people seeing it. If I were to sell them, clearly I don’t mind people seeing it.
I don’t agree. I’d bet a lot of people are willing to sell plenty of ordinarily private things given a high enough price. I don’t think the notion that something is for sale all of a sudden makes that thing magically not private? When you sell something you don’t always make the thing you’re selling available to the public, just to the buyer, and until the sale is complete you’re not typically giving anybody full access to the thing. If it were public/not private the minute you made it for sale, then what is the point in selling it?
Making it for sale means you intend to share it, even if conditionally. Also “taking it” doesn’t apply, making a copy isn’t taking anything.
This isn’t true either. Sometimes people make things for sale with no actual intent of selling. And the intent to share, does not make something all of a sudden not private either. You might share something (perhaps a secret) with a friend, that doesn’t mean the thing you are sharing suddenly becomes not private/public, but that the scope of people you’re will to share this thing privately with has increased by a small amount.
I also disagree with the notion that making a copy just inherently isn’t “taking” things. This is also a matter of definitions, but people actively use the word “taking” to encompass more than just physical things. Phrases like “he took my idea”, “she took my credit card information” and so on are examples of this. Obviously people do consider “taking” to include acts of copying in some cases. If you mean something else by taking, that’s fine, but your personal definition for taking isn’t really relevant when the point I’m making regards a more inclusive notion.
its not piracy. this is /c/piracy
The ethics of data reproduction have been discussed in piracy communities for decades. It’s a central topic to communities centered around data reproduction. Pretending otherwise is stupid.
you dont need my permission you are just making a fool of yourself by trying to call piracy what is not piracy again in /c/piracy
Am I? Or are you arguing in bad faith on a topic you didn’t bother to read the context of?
piracy is distributing copies of publicly available media.
Arguably software, films and music aren’t “publically available” in the sense that they’re only conditionally available to the public (ignoring piracy).
But okay, lets take the pornographic example. Say they occasionally sell nude photos to acquaintances too. Now the photos are in some sense “publicly available” in the sense that some people can buy them. Is it now suddenly okay to pirate this media? If so, then why?
accessing a private device and making copies of personal content inside is illegal and unethical.
Did you not read my very first example where I claimed almost exactly that. What have you been thinking I was talking about?
Your point is wrong. My point is that you can’t always (ethically) just copy other peoples stuff, just like you can’t always just take things from people. My point is not that piracy is never justified. My point is not that you are personally doing something wrong by pirating things. My point is not that you can’t be justified in copying other peoples stuff sometimes without permission. My point is not that piracy or copying other peoples data and documents always causes harm.
Edit: When was pirating “publically available” software specifically ever central to my point?
wut??? nobody in their right mind downloads that stuff! that is NOT what we are talking about, we are talking about movies and games and music
I felt like it was pretty clear that I was not talking about things as small as pirating a couple movies and games from multimillion dollar companies?
you really made this up out of nowhere. nobody defends distribuiting private pictures of people… and BTW in that case is not piracy by definition…
Is it not piracy? Please clarify the difference to me?
Here’s another example. Say a person makes pornographic photos and videos for their significant other, suppose that content gets leaked onto the internet and is uploaded to popular torrent sites without their permission. How is piracy of this sort of content not an invasion of privacy? How is piracy of this sort of content not unethical?
In my example privacy invasion definitely occurs. If you disagree with that, then you should review what I initially said.
If the notion that when people don’t want to share things with you, you have an unqualified right to take those things, and that doing that is just inherently not damaging, then I think your position is unrealistic and incredibly self serving.
Do you have some point to make here besides claiming you’re just never doing anything wrong when it serves your interests?
My example doesn’t require a “for sale” vs not distinction so I’m not sure why you’re imposing that property on it? People pirate unreleased media, unofficial media, bootleg media and other forms of media that aren’t for sale already, so being for sale is definitely not a necessary property of the cases we’re concerned about when we’re talking about the ethics of piracy.
And even if we restrict ourselves to talking about things that are already for sale: 1. Why does something being for sale suddenly make it not private? Many things for sale are already certainly not public. 2. Why does something being for sale suddenly make taking it without permission magically morally acceptable?
That’s pretty much exactly right. However I think there is something to be said along the lines of “What reason would you have for copying the documents, if not to commit an offense?”
People do all sorts of nosy invasive things solely for the sake of curiosity and keeping tabs on others I guess? But at a certain point maybe it could just be shoved under some kind of stalking offense?
Sure, but breaking and entering is a crime - just like theft. Copying someone’s documents is wrong, but it’s not a crime (not unless you commit a crime with those documents, eg fraudulently take out credit). In that case, it’s a civil offense against the victim - just like copyright infringement.
My issue is mostly just to do with the moral status of piracy rather than the criminality of it. It feels like in some cases piracy should be justified and in others it shouldn’t be. The criminality of an act is a separate thing. I think I was kind of explaining things poorly with my examples. The distinction between breaking into a home vs not in my example was meant to show the act of copying somebodies personal documents could still be wrong whether or not a crime had taken place under current laws.
Crimes are prosecuted by the government. To be convicted of a crime you have to be proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt - in other words, it’s more than 99% likely you did it.
Civil offenses are prosecuted by the victim. The burden of proof is “the balance of probabilities”, ie it’s more than 50% likely you did it. The victim must also show actual damages.
This is very interesting. Establishing damages over reproduction of ones personal documents seems like it would be almost impossible to establish unless an actual crime had also taken place.
In the US, media companies have perverted the law around copyright infringement, and they manage to get awarded statutory damages well in excess of any actual damages they incur. This is why we had all those ridiculous Napster lawsuits where people were fined hundreds of thousands for downloading a handful of songs. In the rest of the world, they could only be awarded actual damages, and the lawsuits weren’t really worth anything.
Media companies would really like copyright infringement to be theft, and they’ve lobbied hard for that. However they haven’t managed it, not yet anyway. They did manage to establish a crime of commercial copyright infringement, though, where if you pirate a significant amount of material or do it for profit you could be criminally charged.
This train of thought for me seems to lead towards the most satisfying justifications I can think of for why media piracy is probably morally justifiable.
Regardless of the semantics of what we call theft, or whether theft requires denying somebody access to some good, there’s an ethical issue with copying other people’s stuff without permission. If a person breaks into another persons home and makes copies of all of the documents in their home private or otherwise, they’ve at least committed a crime in the form of breaking and entering. But if a person is invited into another persons home, and then without pemission copies all of the documents in the house, that still feels like a wrong act? Like, if you invite me into your house and I start copying down your personal journal, your family photos and other stuff you have lying around, to me that sounds like I’d be doing something wrong by you?
Edit: I do want to point out here that I’m not saying piracy is inherently wrong/bad or never justified.
Lol what? Goddamn how big is your estate that one single use of a lawnmower is going to so significantly destroy it that it’d be noticeably harder to use? This is like putting 10 miles on a car. Not putting sugar in the gas tank. Jesus.
It seems plausible to that a manager that is already abusing people would go out of their way to do things like docking pay over pretty trivial things like relatively minor tool damage? It doesn’t even have to be at the same scale as actually breaking the tools to cause the kinds of harm I’m talking about.
Point is, if someone is a piece of shit I could care less about inconveniencing them. Which is all stealing from large corporations amounts to. (Again, large corporations, not smaller shops which even if shitty will do shit like take losses out of cashiers pay checks where it is legal [or not, they often don’t care] to do so, so it’s best not to steal from them either way.)
I can sort of get behind the idea that large corporations do a bunch of bad shit, we have an obligation to try and oppose/prevent bad shit from occurring, piracy harms large corporations hence is an act of opposition/prevention, so piracy is justified in that sense. But I don’t think this kind of position is free from issues either.
You revised your text to change its wording. No footnotes.
I’m pretty new to lemmy, but in the web interface comments which have been edited show a little pencil icon with their edit time where the post time used to be. If you look through our comment exchange you’ll notice, none of my comments to you have that icon. I did edit a comment to somebody else, in that comment I added a footnote asking for more details about a point they were making, this had nothing to do with our exchange.
Notice also, in my original message (which has not been edited), my point was “I don’t think this particular line of thought makes for a very good argument without more info”, this is exactly what I have been telling you my point was this whole time, whether or not I edited any comments.
I can no longer assume that you’re arguing in good faith.
It’s pretty ironic to assume the other person is not acting in good faith while you continually respond to a misrepresentation of their position. This is very literally a strawman fallacy. If you aren’t intentionally misunderstanding what I’m saying, then you should work on your reading comprehension skills.
With their original comment,
If they make it difficult or impossible to acquire through purchase (false scarcity by removal fro market) or if despite purchasing a physical object, say a car, I can’t fully use it or repair it without special software I think an argument can be made for surfing the high seas.
I’m only talking about the first case of the or here. I specifically pointed out the other case that you are referring to was not something I had an issue with.
Edit: And how does this change anything? Companies aren’t any more obligated to sell people things than individuals. There are instances where it may be beneficial for a company to choose not to sell certain products, for example if a better product exists that should succeed the old product or when a certain product is later discovered to be harmful in some way.
Of course you wouldn’t be justified in harming a minimum wage worker because the policy of the corporation. That is like the opposite of the point.
That’s a pretty obvious example of the point I was making when I said: “Something being wrong isn’t an immediate justification for whatever action a person takes in reaction.”
Say my neighbor owns a company and exploits immigrants to do lawncare. Maybe I’d pay for it if I knew he was actually taking care of his workers and not exploiting them, but he sucks, boo. So while he is away on vacation I borrow his equipment without asking to do my own lawn. Does it hurt him? I mean technically there is more wear & tear on the equipment. Will he notice? No. Do I give a shit if it causes it to break faster than it would have otherwise? Nah, fuck him.
This feels like very self serving reasoning. I don’t think you’re actually justified in doing something along these lines. Even worse, you can actually cause more harm by doing this. Your wear and tear on your neighbors tools can make the jobs of the already exploited immigrants harder and if the tools break the immigrants may be blamed for it. This actually feels like another good example of my point above that a wrong does not automatically imply justification, regardless of how much it might benefit you personally.
You certainly asserted such by arguing piracy is morally.
No I didn’t. You are either ignoring or misunderstanding what I’m saying. My claim is that certain arguments don’t justify why piracy is permissible. Not that piracy is morally wrong.
If IP belonged to the public …
I’m not making any claims about who IP belongs to.
So please, by what authority are you asserting puts IP in the hands of private interests, thus making piracy a moral wrongdoing.
I can’t give you any authority on this because if you reread what I actually said, I’m not claiming piracy is morally wrong and I’m not claiming anything about IP ownership.
I don’t think the system being wrong is very good justification either. You still run into the same problem I’m pointing out. If some local store near me has an inherently fucked up return policy, I’m probably not justified in shitting in the middle of an aisle or trying to fistfight a cashier in response. Something being wrong isn’t an immediate justification for whatever action a person takes in reaction.
This is not about whether your neighbor is committing wrongdoing in your community, rather whether the system itself, and the edifices that hold it up are conducting themselves in good faith. Without these major players pressuring government to extend the enforced monopolies of copyright longer (that is, robbing the public – you and I – of its catalog of public-domain material) and failing to enforce educational and fair use, we wouldn’t have IP laws at all, and piracy would not be a thing.
Firstly, the neighbor comment I made is an analogy. Nobody is claiming this is about literal neighbors committing wrongdoings in a community. I’m not sure if you’ve missed my point with that analogy or if you’re choosing to willfully misunderstand it here?
Second, what you’re claiming here isn’t correct when you talk about “what this is about”. My comment which you are replying to was not about whether “the system itself, and the edifices holding it up are conducting themselves in good faith” or anything like that. My whole point is about whether “If they make it difficult or impossible to acquire through purchase … I think an argument can be made for surfing the high seas.” is good reasoning or not. Nobody is debating you on whether the modern media industries, the government, etc are corrupt or acting in good faith. That has nothing to do with my actual point.
We’re not pirating from the artists. We’re not pirating from our neighbors. We’re pirating from giant corporations who’ve been plying the government for over a century now to strip rights from the public.
You keep jumping back to these points of “well the media corporations, the government, etc did X wrong by us, so we’re automatically justified to pirate”, that’s not how this works. The whole issue is why does that justify piracy? Doubling down and trying to say “BUT I WAS WRONGED!” is not a good argument here. Being wronged in some way does not make it morally acceptable to just do whatever you like.
If you really want to shill for…
Yeah, I don’t think that’s what I’m doing. I think you’re misrepresenting and/or misunderstanding my point. My point is that the argument below needs more details to justify why/when piracy is acceptable. I’m not claiming piracy is totally unethical or anything like that, nor am I shilling for anything.
If they make it difficult or impossible to acquire through purchase … I think an argument can be made for surfing the high seas.
For what it’s worth, I don’t think your point about ethicality problems in the entertainment industry makes for a very satisfying argument either. If my neighbor steals from somebody else, am I justified in stealing from my neighbor? Maybe? But that reeks of self-interest and doesn’t actually help the real victim.
If my neighbor steals a pound of sugar from somebody and I steal their car, to me it seems like I’m still doing something unethical. If my neighbor steals somebodies life savings and I steal their car, it feels like at best I’m doing something morally neutral, if not still outright wrong.
I’m not saying piracy is unethical, nor am I saying people shouldn’t pirate. What I’m saying is that certain arguments for piracy being ethical aren’t very good.
I feel like the same kind of argument can probably extend to either intellectual property or real physical objects. With physical objects certain limits have to apply of course (like me withholding things you need to survive could potentially justify your theft).
With intellectual property, if you write stories for yourself to pass the time you aren’t obligated to share/sell those stories to me and it would be wrong for me to break into your home and make copies of them if you chose not to sell/share them with me.
If they make it difficult or impossible to acquire through purchase … I think an argument can be made for surfing the high seas.
I don’t think this particular line of thought makes for a very good argument without more info. The other case makes sense. But for this one, people aren’t obligated to sell you things. If you own something sentimental or private to you that I want, you’re not obligated to sell it to me if I want it and I’m not justified in stealing it from you if you don’t want to sell it.
For ex: Think of embarassing photos of yourself, private letters between you and others etc.
It’s pretty clear that I’m talking about more than just family photos. It’s also pretty clear that what I’m saying is that privacy problems are one of possibly many issues with copying data without permission. My actual point here from the start has been that it’s not always ethical to copy other people’s data without permission.
All of the types of media and data I’m talking about are distributable in a colloquial sense. This conversation is about the fact that copying data without permission isn’t always ethical. The data we’re talking about here absolutely includes secrets, private documents and so on.
I don’t think that’s what’s happening. I’m talking about the ethics of copying data. Perhaps sometimes copying data can be considered theft, but whether or not copying data is theft, has nothing to do with my point. A thing being called theft doesn’t make that thing morally wrong or right. The term theft itself has little to do with the actual issue we’re talking about.
Also, I’ve never actually claimed piracy is theft. I’m also not claiming piracy is morally wrong, or even that theft is inherently morally wrong for that matter (a person can be justified in stealing in some cases).
Lets assume you’re right and that literally everybody in the world uses these words the way you do (they don’t). I don’t think arguing “but that word means…” makes a very good argument against the fact that copying data from other people just isn’t always morally right. The fact that you don’t like how I use certain words is just not a good argument against what I’m saying. If you understand what I mean and you disagree with what I’m saying, then why not argue against my point instead of complaining about the fact that you don’t like HOW I use certain words? If you understand what I’m saying and you agree that sometimes it’s wrong to copy other peoples data without permission, then why are we still discussing this?