Banana Pi is working on the upcoming Banana Pi BPI-M7 SBC powered by Rockchip RK3588 SoC whose low profile design reminds me of boards from Khadas such as
The Banana Pi BPI-M7 single board computer is equipped with up to 32GB RAM and 128GB eMMC flash, and features an M.2 2280 socket for one NVMe SSD, three display interfaces (HDMI, USB-C, MIPI DSI), two camera connectors, dual 2.5GbE, WiFi 6 and Bluetooth 5.2, a few USB ports, and a 40-pin GPIO header for expansion.
If you’re looking for cheap… what would recommend is instead a Mini-PC like the HP EliteDesk 800 G2 DM or the Dell OptiPlex 3050 Micro.
For a small NAS and self-host a few services even an old laptop will do it, however there are advantages to picking a mini PC. Those machines are quiet, don’t require much power and some can even fit a 2.5" hard drive so you won’t need external hard drive enclosures. More on that later.
For eg. for 100€ you can find an HP Mini with an i5 8th gen + 16GB of ram + 256GB NVME that obviously has a case, a LOT of I/O, PCIe (m2) comes with a power adapter and outperforms a RPi5 in all possible ways. Note that the RPi5 8GB of ram will cost you 80€ + case + power adapter + cable + bullshit adapter + SD card + whatever else money grab - the Pi isn’t just a good option.
Aside from the big brands like HP and Dell there are other alternatives such as the trendy MINISFORUM however their BIOS comes out of the factory with weird bugs and the hardware isn’t as reliable - missing ESD protection on USB in some models and whatnot.
Do you really think that will make a difference. For what’s worth how much do you pay to have a 35W device running all year? In my case I’m paying a crazy 0,157€/kW… Amounts to 35/1000*24*365*0.157 = 48.14€/year considering a full load that the machine never has.
The max Power consumption often does not matter on devices that run 24/7 more important is the idle powet consumption. Here are SBCs and ARM Chips in generell way better.
I had my Pi 3B+ down to under 5W on idle having various services running. I can not speek for newer Pi versions but i would estimate them still lower then 8W on idle.
That is really hard to beat with an normal PC. Maybe the Mini PC with newer Mobile or integrated CPUs are getting in this region.
Not quite sure where you got the 37W for the HP Mini.
TDP 35 W
Thermal Design Power (TDP) represents the average power, in watts, the processor dissipates when operating at Base Frequency with all cores active under an Intel-defined, high-complexity workload. Refer to Datasheet for thermal solution requirements.
Here’s how things look on the HP model above:
Model name: Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-8500T CPU @ 2.10GHz
BIOS Model name: Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-8500T CPU @ 2.10GHz To Be Filled By O.E.M. CPU @ 2.0GHz
BIOS CPU family: 205
CPU family: 6
Model: 158
Thread(s) per core: 1
Core(s) per socket: 6
Socket(s): 1
Stepping: 10
CPU(s) scaling MHz: 23%
CPU max MHz: 3500.0000
CPU min MHz: 800.0000
Obviously that thing wont be running at base frequency while idling. Here is one if units right now:
analyzing CPU 0:
driver: intel_pstate
CPUs which run at the same hardware frequency: 0
CPUs which need to have their frequency coordinated by software: 0
maximum transition latency: 4294.55 ms.
hardware limits: 800 MHz - 3.50 GHz
available cpufreq governors: performance, powersave
current policy: frequency should be within 800 MHz and 3.50 GHz.
The governor "powersave" may decide which speed to use
within this range.
current CPU frequency is 800 MHz.
See, it scales down to 800Mhz with a watt meter I remember it translated to idling at around 10-11W.
I never said it was better than a Pi, I just said the difference is not worth it and you’re still ignoring the fact that i5-8500T will be able to do a LOT more work than the RPi5 could do while keeping the CPU bellow or at 2.1 GHz - not surpassing the 35 W TDP.
Okay got it, so you compared the highest possible TDP on a Pi with the average/idle TDP on a desktop, and you’re acting like that’s a fair comparison. Thanks for clearing that up!
No… I compared the highest possible TDP on a Pi with with the average TDP of a “T-CPU” (power-optimized) running at full load and I concluded by saying a realistic idle consumption is 11W.
Look I’m sure the Pi does a lot better than 11W idle, but at those such low consumptions is is mostly irrelevant. I also added that given load X (equivalent to the Pi CPU at max load) the Intel CPU will make make it without reaching even the 35W while the Pi is going to be running at a full 27W.
With patience and from eBay and local second hand websites. If you’re in Europe you’ll usually see sellers from Germany selling them for cheap, in the US there are a LOT more offers.
Regardless, like used cars, sometimes a specific generation that is cheap today can be more expensive tomorrow , it all depends on the amount of machines someone or some big company is dumping at the time you’re searching for. In my case I can usually get things locally cheaper than eBay, for eg. recently I saw a very good deal on a HP Elite Mini 600 G9 i3-12100T 16GB of RAM, NMVe 256GB for 300€.
Not really. It’s made to run headless, and isn’t always used for compute tasks. I use mine for running servos. But accessories for the desktop are also not included, so your point doesnt stand regardless.
You won’t be running a Pi5 without a cooler, the kit costs 79$ or 99$ (for the 8GB of RAM). I never said it was over 100$.
Now HP Mini i5 8th gen + 16GB of ram + 256GB NVME that obviously has a case, a LOT of I/O, PCIe (m2) comes with a power adapter and outperforms a RPi5 in all possible ways costs you 100$ as well. And then there’s the 4 and 5th gen Mini PCs selling for 50-70$. If you want even cheaper then look for i3 CPU + 4 GB of RAM, you’ll find 40$ complete machines that run faster and are way better than a Pi
My brother in christ. A used PC has powersupply, case, storage and cooling. This is about the basic kit you need for a proper pi5 experience. You can very easily hit the 100 dollar mark.
Also, most of the used business PC will have 8G RAM, which would put your little ARM funsies up to the $130 budget range.
And you would still only have 4 shitty cores, no expandability.
And it wouldn’t have gpio, would require at least a square foot of floor/desk space, and it would cost more to run. Price. Size. Gpio. Nobody is running their remote controlled car with a cabled desktop sat on it.
Not sure how much more it would cost to run. If you only really talk about stuff a pi can do as well, you wont be maxing out your cores. You will use a bit more maybe. Nothing sort of whatever you only really keep in mind for monero mining.
What accessories? You’re assuming everyone needs all the accessories.
Which accessories?
I’ve got a million keyboards, mice, monitors, cables, chargers, adapters, etc. And I run RPi headless for most use-cases. One is currently using a ten-year old phone charger, it’s on wifi, so what accessories again?
I don’t need that mini computer which is 10 times the size of an RPi for my use cases.
Is it attractive for certain use-cases? Certainly (and I have those on my shopping list), but you keep going on like it’s just the better device.
Hell, I bought a few Pis on sale for $5 each years ago. How is that PC going to beat five bucks, 2 watts max, for my given use-cases (things like Pi-Hole, Vaultwarden, Joplin, etc)?
Yea, to replace my Pis would be about $30 each, but they’d fit in the same place, and migration is a snap.
I’ve got a million keyboards, mice, monitors, cables, chargers, adapters, etc.
Sure, you do. But people just starting likely do not. I’m thinking of the new user, not just myself.
Hell, I bought a few Pis on sale for $5 each years ago. How is that PC going to beat five bucks, 2 watts max, for my given use-cases (things like Pi-Hole, Vaultwarden, Joplin, etc)?
For that you don’t even need a Pi 5. You can get a cheap SBC at around $10-20 to do that work.
Yea, to replace my Pis would be about $30 each, but they’d fit in the same place, and migration is a snap.
And you are assuming people are only buying new boards to replace old boards.
but you keep going on like it’s just the better device.
“Keep going on”? I’ve mentioned it maybe 2 times, that’s hardly enough to classify it as “keep going on”.
I just don’t believe that Raspberry Pi or SBCs are the king(s) of home servers anymore. There are a lot of cheap x86_64 based options out there. But yes, if you just upgrade from a previous generation the Pi 5 is perfect for you, even though it’s likely overkill for your use-case.
You’re ignoring the fact that you need accessories that will up your cost to the 100$ range. Either way, fine, there are now 4 and 5th gen HP Mini PCs selling for 50-70$. Want even cheaper then look for i3 CPU + 4 GB of RAM, you’ll find 40$ complete machines that run faster and are way better than a Pi. All of those options come with power adapters and all the things required to get it going.
I’ve got HP ProDesk 600 G5 Mini i5-9500T off ebay for $190. Best damn purchase ever. Running 21 docker containers and transcode 4k with ease while consuming only 35w.
However, sometimes you need GPIOs especially for school projects.
However, sometimes you need GPIOs especially for school projects.
Yes but think about this, for a simple school/electronics project you can get even an old RPi 2B+ for around 10$ nowadays that will get the job done. For a NAS / media center / selfhosting any second hand machine will be a better choice. I wouln’t even mix the two into a single board.
There are also other brand new cheap SBCs that might work for your electronics such as the Radxa Zero 3W or the Zero 3E or even the Raspberry Pi Zero W. The point is that it doesn’t make sense to buy a standard and expensive RPi for things that don’t require much CPU. If you don’t really need an OS and you code C or MicroPython a 3.5$ ESP32 board as well.
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If you’re looking for cheap… what would recommend is instead a Mini-PC like the HP EliteDesk 800 G2 DM or the Dell OptiPlex 3050 Micro.
For a small NAS and self-host a few services even an old laptop will do it, however there are advantages to picking a mini PC. Those machines are quiet, don’t require much power and some can even fit a 2.5" hard drive so you won’t need external hard drive enclosures. More on that later.
For eg. for 100€ you can find an HP Mini with an i5 8th gen + 16GB of ram + 256GB NVME that obviously has a case, a LOT of I/O, PCIe (m2) comes with a power adapter and outperforms a RPi5 in all possible ways. Note that the RPi5 8GB of ram will cost you 80€ + case + power adapter + cable + bullshit adapter + SD card + whatever else money grab - the Pi isn’t just a good option.
Aside from the big brands like HP and Dell there are other alternatives such as the trendy MINISFORUM however their BIOS comes out of the factory with weird bugs and the hardware isn’t as reliable - missing ESD protection on USB in some models and whatnot.
So it costs more up front, and it uses more electricity which costs more in the long term.
I don’t need all the extra Pi accessories, I already have cables and chargers and SD cards. So for me, the price of a Pi is just the price of a Pi.
Do you really think that will make a difference. For what’s worth how much do you pay to have a 35W device running all year? In my case I’m paying a crazy 0,157€/kW… Amounts to 35/1000*24*365*0.157 = 48.14€/year considering a full load that the machine never has.
The max Power consumption often does not matter on devices that run 24/7 more important is the idle powet consumption. Here are SBCs and ARM Chips in generell way better.
I had my Pi 3B+ down to under 5W on idle having various services running. I can not speek for newer Pi versions but i would estimate them still lower then 8W on idle. That is really hard to beat with an normal PC. Maybe the Mini PC with newer Mobile or integrated CPUs are getting in this region.
Not quite sure where you got the 37W for the HP Mini.
Check this out: https://lemmy.world/comment/5503906
Lmao did you just compare the highest possible power consumption on a Pi with the lowest possible consumption on a desktop PC?
Lmao, do your research before commenting stuff like that.
Here’s how things look on the HP model above:
Obviously that thing wont be running at base frequency while idling. Here is one if units right now:
See, it scales down to 800Mhz with a watt meter I remember it translated to idling at around 10-11W.
I never said it was better than a Pi, I just said the difference is not worth it and you’re still ignoring the fact that i5-8500T will be able to do a LOT more work than the RPi5 could do while keeping the CPU bellow or at 2.1 GHz - not surpassing the 35 W TDP.
Okay got it, so you compared the highest possible TDP on a Pi with the average/idle TDP on a desktop, and you’re acting like that’s a fair comparison. Thanks for clearing that up!
No… I compared the highest possible TDP on a Pi with with the average TDP of a “T-CPU” (power-optimized) running at full load and I concluded by saying a realistic idle consumption is 11W.
Look I’m sure the Pi does a lot better than 11W idle, but at those such low consumptions is is mostly irrelevant. I also added that given load X (equivalent to the Pi CPU at max load) the Intel CPU will make make it without reaching even the 35W while the Pi is going to be running at a full 27W.
TDP != Power consumption.
Where on earth are you buying HP Mini machines for so cheap? Even the older gen seem to be 5 times as expensive as your estimate.
With patience and from eBay and local second hand websites. If you’re in Europe you’ll usually see sellers from Germany selling them for cheap, in the US there are a LOT more offers.
Regardless, like used cars, sometimes a specific generation that is cheap today can be more expensive tomorrow , it all depends on the amount of machines someone or some big company is dumping at the time you’re searching for. In my case I can usually get things locally cheaper than eBay, for eg. recently I saw a very good deal on a HP Elite Mini 600 G9 i3-12100T 16GB of RAM, NMVe 256GB for 300€.
Thanks for taking the time to respond.
I appreciate the info, but I am not a patient man. :)
Fair enough 😂
100$ isn’t cheaper than 55$. That’s 200% more than the pi. If someone is looking for a pi because of the price, a 100$ computer isn’t an option.
The Pi is $55 without any accessories… With accessories it’s way over $100.
Not really. It’s made to run headless, and isn’t always used for compute tasks. I use mine for running servos. But accessories for the desktop are also not included, so your point doesnt stand regardless.
Oh his point stands, as soon as you add a case and a power adapter/cable you’re near 100$.
I’ve got easily 50 power adapters for things like Pi. Doesn’t everyone?
No it doesn’t. The power supply is 8$ and the case is 10$, from the official store. That’s 72$. Stop lying.
Yeah sure.
You’re funny. That makes the total 77$. Still not the 100$ + required accessories that a desktop needs.
You won’t be running a Pi5 without a cooler, the kit costs 79$ or 99$ (for the 8GB of RAM). I never said it was over 100$.
Now HP Mini i5 8th gen + 16GB of ram + 256GB NVME that obviously has a case, a LOT of I/O, PCIe (m2) comes with a power adapter and outperforms a RPi5 in all possible ways costs you 100$ as well. And then there’s the 4 and 5th gen Mini PCs selling for 50-70$. If you want even cheaper then look for i3 CPU + 4 GB of RAM, you’ll find 40$ complete machines that run faster and are way better than a Pi
My brother in christ. A used PC has powersupply, case, storage and cooling. This is about the basic kit you need for a proper pi5 experience. You can very easily hit the 100 dollar mark.
Also, most of the used business PC will have 8G RAM, which would put your little ARM funsies up to the $130 budget range.
And you would still only have 4 shitty cores, no expandability.
And it wouldn’t have gpio, would require at least a square foot of floor/desk space, and it would cost more to run. Price. Size. Gpio. Nobody is running their remote controlled car with a cabled desktop sat on it.
If you’re running a remote controlled car you want something way down the power scale like as ESP32 or even an ATTiny + radio HW.
Mind you, I don’t disagree with your actual point, I just think the example you used wasn’t correct.
If you just need GPIO for low level electronics there are 20$ SBCs that get the job done. No need for a full RPi5.
Not sure how much more it would cost to run. If you only really talk about stuff a pi can do as well, you wont be maxing out your cores. You will use a bit more maybe. Nothing sort of whatever you only really keep in mind for monero mining.
USFF boxes are quite a bit smaller footprint than 1 sq/ft, about 7"x7"x1.4"
You’re assuming use-case.
What accessories? You’re assuming everyone needs all the accessories.
Which accessories?
I’ve got a million keyboards, mice, monitors, cables, chargers, adapters, etc. And I run RPi headless for most use-cases. One is currently using a ten-year old phone charger, it’s on wifi, so what accessories again?
I don’t need that mini computer which is 10 times the size of an RPi for my use cases.
Is it attractive for certain use-cases? Certainly (and I have those on my shopping list), but you keep going on like it’s just the better device.
Hell, I bought a few Pis on sale for $5 each years ago. How is that PC going to beat five bucks, 2 watts max, for my given use-cases (things like Pi-Hole, Vaultwarden, Joplin, etc)?
Yea, to replace my Pis would be about $30 each, but they’d fit in the same place, and migration is a snap.
Sure, you do. But people just starting likely do not. I’m thinking of the new user, not just myself.
For that you don’t even need a Pi 5. You can get a cheap SBC at around $10-20 to do that work.
And you are assuming people are only buying new boards to replace old boards.
“Keep going on”? I’ve mentioned it maybe 2 times, that’s hardly enough to classify it as “keep going on”.
I just don’t believe that Raspberry Pi or SBCs are the king(s) of home servers anymore. There are a lot of cheap x86_64 based options out there. But yes, if you just upgrade from a previous generation the Pi 5 is perfect for you, even though it’s likely overkill for your use-case.
You’re ignoring the fact that you need accessories that will up your cost to the 100$ range. Either way, fine, there are now 4 and 5th gen HP Mini PCs selling for 50-70$. Want even cheaper then look for i3 CPU + 4 GB of RAM, you’ll find 40$ complete machines that run faster and are way better than a Pi. All of those options come with power adapters and all the things required to get it going.
Thank you for your detailed suggestion.
I’ve got HP ProDesk 600 G5 Mini i5-9500T off ebay for $190. Best damn purchase ever. Running 21 docker containers and transcode 4k with ease while consuming only 35w.
However, sometimes you need GPIOs especially for school projects.
Yes but think about this, for a simple school/electronics project you can get even an old RPi 2B+ for around 10$ nowadays that will get the job done. For a NAS / media center / selfhosting any second hand machine will be a better choice. I wouln’t even mix the two into a single board.
There are also other brand new cheap SBCs that might work for your electronics such as the Radxa Zero 3W or the Zero 3E or even the Raspberry Pi Zero W. The point is that it doesn’t make sense to buy a standard and expensive RPi for things that don’t require much CPU. If you don’t really need an OS and you code C or MicroPython a 3.5$ ESP32 board as well.