Jon Stewart mocked both President Biden and former President Trump during his return to “The Daily Show,” saying both 2024 candidates are “stretching the limits of being able to h…
If the people in charge have the ability to end democracy, how can democracy be claimed to exist in the first place? Democracy is supposed to be our capability as individual citizens to regulate the people in power, but if they can turn that switch on or off, we don’t actually have that capability except as they choose to allow us to.
The simple answer to your question is by the people taking a person who very overtly says that he has no desire to preserve democracy and in fact has already sought to overturn it once before and then proceeding to return that person to office in order to do just that.
We do have the ability to regulate the people in power by not voting for them in the first place. If we take the ability and use it to give power to someone who wants to do away with democracy, that’s pretty much on us.
Ultimately, any frustration with Biden - and I acknowledge that valid ones absolutely do exist - must be squared against the fact that we have to put a candidate up against Trump. Whether Biden is the person with the best odds against him is an objective and empirical one, though also one that’s hard to accurately study and answer. Disapproval polls are certainly one source of info, but they do not necessarily mean that any other potential alternative would do better. It is very possible for large amounts of people to disapprove of Biden but ultimately disapprove of Trump even more. We can’t actually personify “broadly generic and popular Democrat” into a real human, and even if we could, that’s basically Biden, so unless there exists an actual specific person who is both broadly popular and with more political clout than Biden who’s also interested in running, the practical choice is Biden against Trump, no matter how much ink people want to spill on the matter.
Edit: On a more pragmatic matter, I absolutely agree that telling progressives to shut up, stop complaining, and vote for Biden is not a particularly effective style of messaging.
We do have the ability to regulate the people in power by not voting for them in the first place.
So if there are only 2 people on the ballot, and you don’t want either, what are your options? If the DNC is actively working to prevent others from getting on the ballot, leaving us with only 2 bad choices, and you go along with it, you haven’t actually ‘regulated’ anything. Dangling a false choice in front of people to create the illusion of agency is nothing new, and it’s very much what US politics at the national level is.
Want to ‘regulate’ the ability of the US president to enable a genocide in Gaza? Too bad, because all of the candidates that the parties will let you vote for, will all enable the genocide. Believing you actually have real control over the US government is a lie you tell yourself.
use it to give power to someone who wants to do away with democracy
No one here is talking about voting for Trump, and the rhetoric of ‘not voting for Biden puts Trump in office’ runs directly counter to your argument that we have the ability to regulate who gets into office, because you’re explicitly arguing that it’s a binary choice and it’s a moral imperative to put one of those people in power.
I can’t both have to vote for Biden as a moral imperative to stave off the death of democracy, and also not have to vote for him, in order to regulate his ability to wield US strategic power to further a genocide. It’s a false choice that’s been forced by the political parties’ shutting-out of other parties and candidates, but pushing a button every 4 years makes you feel like you had an impact.
any frustration with Biden… must be squared against the fact that we have to put a candidate up against Trump
Of course, which is why my real anger is directed at the DNC. They didn’t learn their lesson in 2016. They put Trump in power by shoving through their preferred candidate, despite her being mind-bogglingly unpopular. Biden eked out a win in 2020 because people hated Trump enough and he was still fresh in their minds, but the reality on the ground now is that Trump has been gone for a while, and most peoples’ lives have not gotten markedly better under Biden. Biden’s promise that “Nothing will fundamentally change” has proven true, and I think there are too many voters who will not turn out in force to vote against Trump this election, just as they didn’t in 2016. And Biden is wildly unpopular, to boot.
Just to be clear; if Biden is the candidate in the General election, I will probably vote for him(because what the hell else can I do? Any actual good candidates were bullied out of running). But at this point, I don’t think he’s going to win. I think the apathy towards his insubstantive actions, combined with the very valid and justified anger over his aid in the genocide in Gaza, is going to lose him the election. It doesn’t matter what politically-engaged people like you and I think, if the average person isn’t on board with him, and they’re not.
So if there are only 2 people on the ballot, and you don’t want either, what are your options?
How many people who are upset about this do anything about it the other ~3.5 years we aren’t about to enter the general?
Getting who you want on a ballot and representing you takes work. There are a ton of elections other than the president as well and you can make a difference in those elections. Hell half the people upset about it don’t even vote in the primaries I bet. You can simply look at turnout to see that.
We do have the ability to regulate the people in power by not voting for them in the first place.
This ^ is the assertion I was responding to.
How many people who are upset about this do anything about it the other ~3.5 years we aren’t about to enter the general?
If you are asserting that it’s other actions that must be undertaken, and not the general election voting that regulates people in power, then you’re just supporting my point.
Getting who you want on a ballot and representing you takes work.
This belies the fact that there is a TON of work being done, constantly, by organizers at all levels. The problem is that you cannot out-raise party-aligned Super PACs with grassroots, individual funding. You can’t reach a wider audience with door-to-door campaigning, than a Super PAC can with TV and internet ads. You can’t meet the primary debate requirements set by the parties (when they don’t just not hold debates altogether), when the parties are intentionally making those requirements impossible for grassroots campaigns to meet.
There are a ton of elections other than the president as well and you can make a difference in those elections.
Sure. You can get local and some state-level positions changed through grassroots organizing. But those positions are rarely the people in actual power. I never asserted that voting has no effect, I asserted that it is not the proper means to hold people in power accountable, because voting is a system run by and subject to the rules put in place by, those very people.
This belies the fact that there is a TON of work being done, constantly, by organizers at all levels. The problem is that you cannot out-raise party-aligned Super PACs with grassroots, individual funding. You can’t reach a wider audience with door-to-door campaigning, than a Super PAC can with TV and internet ads. You can’t meet the primary debate requirements set by the parties (when they don’t just not hold debates altogether), when the parties are intentionally making those requirements impossible for grassroots campaigns to meet.
Our political system is set up to discourage political engagement. Organizing takes time, money, community, and civic-mindedness, and our society is set up to sap all of those away from the average person. You’re basically just blaming the people who are overcoming those barriers, to organize and be politically-engaged, for the fact it’s impossible for them to singlehandledly overcome the political apathy that the system is built to propagate.
All of your concerns are fixed when everyone pays attention for more than one out of every four years. Until that happens…
That will never happen, because as I said, our political system does not want that to happen, and works to make sure it doesn’t. So what you’re really saying is, “don’t ever push for change within the party itself, just toe the party line”.
You have no clue whether someone online who is complaining is in fact only engaging in politics “one year out of every four”, so this is just showcasing your own assumptions.
You are not logged in. However you can subscribe from another Fediverse account, for example Lemmy or Mastodon. To do this, paste the following into the search field of your instance: !politics@beehaw.org
In-depth political discussion from around the world; if it’s a political happening, you can post it here.
Guidelines for submissions:
Where possible, post the original source of information.
If there is a paywall, you can use alternative sources or provide an archive.today, 12ft.io, etc. link in the body.
Do not editorialize titles. Preserve the original title when possible; edits for clarity are fine.
Do not post ragebait or shock stories. These will be removed.
Do not post tabloid or blogspam stories. These will be removed.
Social media should be a source of last resort.
These guidelines will be enforced on a know-it-when-I-see-it basis.
The simple answer to your question is by the people taking a person who very overtly says that he has no desire to preserve democracy and in fact has already sought to overturn it once before and then proceeding to return that person to office in order to do just that.
We do have the ability to regulate the people in power by not voting for them in the first place. If we take the ability and use it to give power to someone who wants to do away with democracy, that’s pretty much on us.
Ultimately, any frustration with Biden - and I acknowledge that valid ones absolutely do exist - must be squared against the fact that we have to put a candidate up against Trump. Whether Biden is the person with the best odds against him is an objective and empirical one, though also one that’s hard to accurately study and answer. Disapproval polls are certainly one source of info, but they do not necessarily mean that any other potential alternative would do better. It is very possible for large amounts of people to disapprove of Biden but ultimately disapprove of Trump even more. We can’t actually personify “broadly generic and popular Democrat” into a real human, and even if we could, that’s basically Biden, so unless there exists an actual specific person who is both broadly popular and with more political clout than Biden who’s also interested in running, the practical choice is Biden against Trump, no matter how much ink people want to spill on the matter.
Edit: On a more pragmatic matter, I absolutely agree that telling progressives to shut up, stop complaining, and vote for Biden is not a particularly effective style of messaging.
So if there are only 2 people on the ballot, and you don’t want either, what are your options? If the DNC is actively working to prevent others from getting on the ballot, leaving us with only 2 bad choices, and you go along with it, you haven’t actually ‘regulated’ anything. Dangling a false choice in front of people to create the illusion of agency is nothing new, and it’s very much what US politics at the national level is.
Want to ‘regulate’ the ability of the US president to enable a genocide in Gaza? Too bad, because all of the candidates that the parties will let you vote for, will all enable the genocide. Believing you actually have real control over the US government is a lie you tell yourself.
No one here is talking about voting for Trump, and the rhetoric of ‘not voting for Biden puts Trump in office’ runs directly counter to your argument that we have the ability to regulate who gets into office, because you’re explicitly arguing that it’s a binary choice and it’s a moral imperative to put one of those people in power.
I can’t both have to vote for Biden as a moral imperative to stave off the death of democracy, and also not have to vote for him, in order to regulate his ability to wield US strategic power to further a genocide. It’s a false choice that’s been forced by the political parties’ shutting-out of other parties and candidates, but pushing a button every 4 years makes you feel like you had an impact.
Of course, which is why my real anger is directed at the DNC. They didn’t learn their lesson in 2016. They put Trump in power by shoving through their preferred candidate, despite her being mind-bogglingly unpopular. Biden eked out a win in 2020 because people hated Trump enough and he was still fresh in their minds, but the reality on the ground now is that Trump has been gone for a while, and most peoples’ lives have not gotten markedly better under Biden. Biden’s promise that “Nothing will fundamentally change” has proven true, and I think there are too many voters who will not turn out in force to vote against Trump this election, just as they didn’t in 2016. And Biden is wildly unpopular, to boot.
Just to be clear; if Biden is the candidate in the General election, I will probably vote for him(because what the hell else can I do? Any actual good candidates were bullied out of running). But at this point, I don’t think he’s going to win. I think the apathy towards his insubstantive actions, combined with the very valid and justified anger over his aid in the genocide in Gaza, is going to lose him the election. It doesn’t matter what politically-engaged people like you and I think, if the average person isn’t on board with him, and they’re not.
How many people who are upset about this do anything about it the other ~3.5 years we aren’t about to enter the general?
Getting who you want on a ballot and representing you takes work. There are a ton of elections other than the president as well and you can make a difference in those elections. Hell half the people upset about it don’t even vote in the primaries I bet. You can simply look at turnout to see that.
This ^ is the assertion I was responding to.
If you are asserting that it’s other actions that must be undertaken, and not the general election voting that regulates people in power, then you’re just supporting my point.
This belies the fact that there is a TON of work being done, constantly, by organizers at all levels. The problem is that you cannot out-raise party-aligned Super PACs with grassroots, individual funding. You can’t reach a wider audience with door-to-door campaigning, than a Super PAC can with TV and internet ads. You can’t meet the primary debate requirements set by the parties (when they don’t just not hold debates altogether), when the parties are intentionally making those requirements impossible for grassroots campaigns to meet.
Sure. You can get local and some state-level positions changed through grassroots organizing. But those positions are rarely the people in actual power. I never asserted that voting has no effect, I asserted that it is not the proper means to hold people in power accountable, because voting is a system run by and subject to the rules put in place by, those very people.
deleted by creator
From my other comment:
Our political system is set up to discourage political engagement. Organizing takes time, money, community, and civic-mindedness, and our society is set up to sap all of those away from the average person. You’re basically just blaming the people who are overcoming those barriers, to organize and be politically-engaged, for the fact it’s impossible for them to singlehandledly overcome the political apathy that the system is built to propagate.
That will never happen, because as I said, our political system does not want that to happen, and works to make sure it doesn’t. So what you’re really saying is, “don’t ever push for change within the party itself, just toe the party line”.
No thanks.
deleted by creator
You have no clue whether someone online who is complaining is in fact only engaging in politics “one year out of every four”, so this is just showcasing your own assumptions.
deleted by creator