Timing the start of something is not a simple process. Punishing people for being late disproportionately impacts poor and disabled people. Not all of us can drive a car or even have a car to drive. We might have to wait on other people, or use public transportation, and the more steps we add to the process the more likely something is to go wrong. Punishing people for being late is systematic oppression towards these groups. This punishment can include starting without people, especially if that itself is framed as a punishment.
“Let the late ones be late and miss out (they can read the minutes), and reward the prompt ones by not wasting their time”
From the rusty’s rules of order, something the IWW uses to organize. They are ableist.
On the other hand, waiting too long to start can impact people with limited time or energy. Not everyone can stay awake an extra hour just to wait for something to start.
This means that there is not one singular solution for how to start things (although obviously don’t do punishment). In small groups the best solution is to talk things over with everyone and get an idea for what everyone wants to happen, what can go wrong, and plans to mitigate any potential issues. If public transportation is running late, maybe someone with a car can go pick you up.
For large groups, most things do not need a strict starting time. If it is a large group and it requires strict attendance then you brought hierarchy into it long ago and ableism and such was always the conclusion you were going to get anyways.
edit:
organizing in a way where disabled people are inherently accommodated instead of shoved into some “extra” system makes a big difference
to reply to those below,
it is “entitled” to think that it isn’t ableist to force people into systems instead of building systems around the people there.
to put it simply, if a group is organized in a way where you must actively decide to favor one social group over another systematically and it is always the same group, you failed and are just doing hierarchy, in this case on the basis of ability. It doesn’t matter if you can’t imagine organizing without ableism, that is still ableism.
I got a discord linked in my bio for people who are a fan of that form of organizing, as you can see here it isn’t common even in these spaces
Reading your headline, I was thinking I was going to agree with you here. People who have lower incomes or who lack transportation absolutely have more barriers to overcome to be on time, and I genuinely believe grace should be given e.g. when arriving to work.
But starting a large meeting on time is being ableist? I don’t know how else to put this…that sentiment is profoundly entitled. You want the entire group to wait for you because you had transportation difficulties? You want the entire group to extend the time they were planning on being on this meeting? What about people who have pre-scheduled rides who are going to have to leave on time? People who rely on family for transport?
I fully support giving grace to people who have transportation issues, and supporting them in getting caught up on anything they may have missed. I will never abide a person who’s not on time who expects the world to stop and wait for them and calls them “ableist” for just holding a meeting as planned.
I came into this ready to agree with OP. In fact I wanted to add an additional point about how neurodiverse conditions can make it difficult for some people to keep track of things and arrive on time.
But the idea that other people should put their schedules on hold? Nah, sorry. You lost me there, OP.
No, but it might be to charge a “missed appointment fee” if you don’t get there on time. That’s the fucking difference between punishment and consequences.
That makes sense, I’m just trying to understand OP’s view on large meetings. I understand the issue with calling it a punishment that those who are late have to miss the first part, but always waiting for everyone be present just seems impossible (similarly to delaying a concert).
I’ve managed people for a long time. I’ve helped develop and implement accomodations for people with physical disabilities, learning disabilities, trauma history, mental health issues, and more. What you’re doing here is painting everyone with a disability with one brush, where the reality is people with disabilities have a wide variety of needs and wants.
I feel like you are coming into this conversation with a specific grievance about a specific meeting or group that’s starting without you. I’d challenge you to think inventively about how you can get your needs met while not externalizing your experience (“my dissatisfaction is everyone else’s fault”) and falling into resentment.
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Reading your headline, I was thinking I was going to agree with you here. People who have lower incomes or who lack transportation absolutely have more barriers to overcome to be on time, and I genuinely believe grace should be given e.g. when arriving to work.
But starting a large meeting on time is being ableist? I don’t know how else to put this…that sentiment is profoundly entitled. You want the entire group to wait for you because you had transportation difficulties? You want the entire group to extend the time they were planning on being on this meeting? What about people who have pre-scheduled rides who are going to have to leave on time? People who rely on family for transport?
I fully support giving grace to people who have transportation issues, and supporting them in getting caught up on anything they may have missed. I will never abide a person who’s not on time who expects the world to stop and wait for them and calls them “ableist” for just holding a meeting as planned.
You said exactly what I was thinking.
I came into this ready to agree with OP. In fact I wanted to add an additional point about how neurodiverse conditions can make it difficult for some people to keep track of things and arrive on time.
But the idea that other people should put their schedules on hold? Nah, sorry. You lost me there, OP.
organizing in a way where disabled people are inherently accommodated instead of shoved into some “extra” system makes a big difference
it is entitled to think that it isn’t ableist to force people into systems instead of building systems around the people
Do you think a concert starting on time when not everyone who bought a ticket has arrived yet is ableist?
No, but it might be to charge a “missed appointment fee” if you don’t get there on time. That’s the fucking difference between punishment and consequences.
Which is what the original commenter already indicated they think as well.
That makes sense, I’m just trying to understand OP’s view on large meetings. I understand the issue with calling it a punishment that those who are late have to miss the first part, but always waiting for everyone be present just seems impossible (similarly to delaying a concert).
I’ve managed people for a long time. I’ve helped develop and implement accomodations for people with physical disabilities, learning disabilities, trauma history, mental health issues, and more. What you’re doing here is painting everyone with a disability with one brush, where the reality is people with disabilities have a wide variety of needs and wants.
I feel like you are coming into this conversation with a specific grievance about a specific meeting or group that’s starting without you. I’d challenge you to think inventively about how you can get your needs met while not externalizing your experience (“my dissatisfaction is everyone else’s fault”) and falling into resentment.