75% of the anti-piracy discussions I see rarely blame companies like Nintendo or Disney and always try to talk about how piracy is immoral, and you should feel “dirty” for doing it. My question is why do people seem to hate those who pirate more than the bad practices of mega-corporations or the fact that they don’t want to preserve their media?
There’s no projection. I feel no guilt for eating the diet of every single one of my ancestors. Zero. I do not believe animals to be sentient, and I do not equate death or servitude with suffering. It’s not that I don’t understand vegans. I do. But it’s like a religion - you have a fundamental belief, not in god, but in the consciousness of animals. Because we differ on that fundamental belief, we can reach no understanding about the ethics beyond that.
And I think it is a fair comparison. People who pay for media may also see it as an ethical baseline to pay for what you consume. And in both the case of vegans, and those who pay for streaming, the perceived benefit of that choice is in my opinion fundamentally flawed. But it’s really not a big deal to me. I was just trying to answer OPs question. I think your response only validates my analogy. Thank you.
Also, saying “I do not equate death or servitude with suffering” is just using an absurd personal opinion to invalidate objective considerations. It’d be like me saying, “I don’t associate shouting slurs at racial minorities with racism,” to validate such an act. In either case, neither distortion serves as a justification for this wicked behavior.
But it’s like a religion - you have a fundamental belief, not in god, but in the consciousness of animals.
False equivalence. One belief is speculative and far more abstract, but the other belief has legitimate concrete evidence to support it. Once again, read the very comprehensive analysis.
People who pay for media may also see it as an ethical baseline to pay for what you consume.
Again, this is a false equivalence, and it seems that you are abusing the notion of morality being subjective in order to justify an immoral act. You could also easily say something like “People who refrain from assaulting innocent people see it as an ethical baseline, but I don’t” as a bad attempt at justifying assaulting innocent people, but it won’t hold weight on its own. You have to provide a solid basis for why such an equivalence actually makes sense, but you do not. You just state it like it’s plainly obvious and doesn’t need further details.
This is so copey that it hardly deserves a full-fledged response. Please know that this comment isn’t the “own” you think it is. You’re embarrassing yourself.
OOC if I had a pet pig. Loved it. Gave it a full and happy life safe and warm in my house until one day it died of old age. Would it be okay to give the body to my destitute neighbours so they can feed their dogs?
Insects, crustaceans, and mollusks do not have any form of consciousness. They are just as aware and alive as fungi and plants. Otherwise we would feel great remorse when examining all the slaughtered insects on the front of our motor vehicles. Fish, are slightly more aware, but I don’t attach much emotional weight to their very tiny brains. Birds and mammals are on a higher level of consciousness than a lot of the animal kingdom. But not all death is painful. Many humans seek a dignified and painless death.
Domesticated animals for the most part have the ability to escape, if they wanted to express their consciousness and free will. The process of domestication is an evolutionary choice. Chickens and other livestock are suffering today because their ancestors gave away their freedom for security.
Actually I think dogs collectively suffer more than most of our livestock. For them, death is out of reach. Their suffering is prolonged. Their mutations and genetic deficiencies are cruel. Many dogs are born with such horrible genes and behaviors they have no hope of a quality life with humans. Very sad.
Anyway, there is no objective truth on this matter. But I know you care so much about suffering, I just want to reassure you, that I feel no sorrow for livestock. Everything we eat and purchase impacts the animals on this planet. To exist is to impose suffering on the Earth. And I’m okay with that. My opinion, is that vegans are drawing a line in sand so feint that it is erased by the slightest breeze.
You are a disgusting human. I’m actually appalled reading the shit you’re writing. It’s not often that I read such concentrated evil. You don’t think death and servitude cause suffering? You think domesticated animals choose to stay in factory farms? You’re a fucking ghoul.
I’m quite sincere. I used to drive my car in a hurry for years. It’s no way to live. I caused myself a lot of unnecessary stress. At the time of course I blamed my stress on all the slow, distracted shitheads. But they’re infinite, and out of my control. But one thing is in my control: how I react. I made a decision one day that I would never drive in a hurry. That it would take how long it takes. It’s been a lot better since then.
Just like the shitheads on the road, you will find no short supply of people who don’t share your world view. If they upset you, it’s a rough road ahead. I hope you find peace. ☮︎
Insects, crustaceans, and mollusks do not have any form of consciousness. They are just as aware and alive as fungi and plants. Otherwise we would feel great remorse when examining all the slaughtered insects on the front of our motor vehicles.
First of all, current data on the sentience of insects, crustaceans, and mollusks are, at the most, uncertain regarding whether or not these animals have sentience, not definitively conclusive in the direction of them not having sentience. And even if they were to actually not be sentient, this is honestly just a red herring unless these are the ONLY animals that you are responsible for the enslavement, exploitation, and slaughter of, but you are clearly very disingenuous. Other animals that you endorse being exploited and tortured, such as cows and pigs, objectively have been confirmed to have consciousness (read the fucking study), so how is this even relevant? As far as the point about running them over with motor vehicles, some degree of animal suffering like this is inevitable, but to purport that the existence of inevitable unintentional animal suffering justifies deliberately funding farm animals being shoved into gas chambers just for personal pleasure is nothing more than an appeal to futility fallacy. Humans have died in the construction of houses, but I’m not seeing you say that it’s okay to deliberately murder humans to eat them simply because so many people are living in houses and they cannot guarantee that the construction of such houses did not cause any human death.
Fish, are slightly more aware, but I don’t attach much emotional weight to their very tiny brains.
“I don’t attach much emotional weight to their very tiny brains.”
By you using such “I” phrasing, you are inadvertently admitting that you are not going off of scientific consensus (which you’ve already proved yourself to be really fucking bad at anyway), but rather “personal vibes about their tiny brains, bro.” Like, even this study provides support for this claim within the very first sentence of its abstract, in addition to all of the intricacies pertaining to the research conducted to gain this information, of course.
But not all death is painful. Many humans seek a dignified and painless death.
This is irrelevant, as we don’t necessarily say that it is morally acceptable to take the life of a human so long as you do it in a painless way. In these scenarios, you are referring to a human going through a “dignified and painless death.” These often involve matters of consensual euthanasia and/or mental illness.
If someone went into your house while you were sleeping at 3 AM and did an instantly lethal, painless blow to your head with a firearm, would you consider that morally acceptable due to the “painless” nature of the death?
Domesticated animals for the most part have the ability to escape, if they wanted to express their consciousness and free will. The process of domestication is an evolutionary choice. Chickens and other livestock are suffering today because their ancestors gave away their freedom for security.
I am baffled by how much you can reach. You are claiming that because humans have been able to seize the wild ancestors of modern-day domesticated farm animals, that means these animals “gave their freedom away.” You’re so rhetorically illiterate that I keep thinking with each read of your words that I will not see mental gymnastics more absurd than what you’ve already put out, but you keep proving me wrong! This is also a baseless claim, as you obviously were not around to witness how humans went about capturing these wild ancestors. It reeks of a victim-blaming mentality as well, saying that “If the animals didn’t want humans to exploit them, they should’ve just escaped!” This is not shocking for someone who “does not equate death or servitude with suffering,” though.
As far as the animals we have today, domesticated animals cannot last in the wild, so escaping could lead them into a dangerous situation as well; that’s exactly why we call them DOMESTICATED. Exploitative humans have selectively bred and genetically modified these animals to be meat, milk, and egg-producing machines. By utilizing manmade restraining devices, such as those that are literally called r— racks. I should add, humans keep these animals unable to escape, but they still try to escape in whatever capacity they can.
Actually I think dogs collectively suffer more than most of our livestock. For them, death is out of reach. Their suffering is prolonged. Their mutations and genetic deficiencies are cruel. Many dogs are born with such horrible genes and behaviors they have no hope of a quality life with humans. Very sad.
Wait a minute. I thought that you did not believe in the sentience of animals, so why do you worry about dogs? You’re contradicting yourself! Also, yes, dogs are also victims of speciesism, human supremacy, and animal exploitation, so don’t support the pet industry, and if you want to be logically consistent, eschew the dairy, egg, and meat industry while you’re at it.
Anyway, there is no objective truth on this matter. But I know you care so much about suffering, I just want to reassure you, that I feel no sorrow for livestock.
There are studies that objectively indicate these things, but seeing as how undialectical and unscientific you are, you have deliberately chosen to neglect the actual peer-reviewed studies I have sent you because you know that being faced with information that makes a strong case against your already abhorrent rhetoric would strike too much of a nerve.
Saying “I feel no sorrow for livestock” is just giving your personal opinion on a matter, but lacking sympathy for another sentient being still does not serve as a moral justification for the exploitation and slaughtering of that sentient being. If a Klansman said, “I feel no sorrow for black people,” surely you wouldn’t think that his lynchings are now morally justified, right?
Everything we eat and purchase impacts the animals on this planet. To exist is to impose suffering on the Earth. And I’m okay with that.
Once again, this is an appeal to futility. Yes, we all cause some degree of harm and suffering just by existing, but that doesn’t mean deliberately going out of your way to uphold harm and suffering is morally acceptable, and it certainly does not make the slavery aspect of animal oppression morally acceptable either. This isn’t about whether or not you’re okay with these things. Morality is a two-way street, just like how the Klansman in that hypothetical isn’t morally justified by neglecting the interests of his black victims and only focusing on what he thinks alone.
My opinion, is that vegans are drawing a line in sand so feint that it is erased by the slightest breeze.
My brother in Christ, you are the one who literally rejected fish sentience on the basis of pure vibes rather than evidence. If you’re going back to what you said about insects, crustaceans, and mollusks, then once again, I challenge you to tell me exactly how that justifies what you’re doing to animals that are not within those categories. You also seem to have sympathy for dogs even though you literally stated, “I do not believe animals to be sentient, and I do not equate death or servitude with suffering,” so whose lines are arbitrary again?
I nearly spared you this because you are so deeply unserious and one of the worst instances of a rhetorically illiterate carnist who spouts absurd takes in an effort to come off as some degree of logically consistent, but quite frankly, it’d truthfully just be far more honorable for you to own up to your shortcomings here.
You didn’t even have to bring up veganism to begin with, as the original thread has nothing to do with it. You brought it upon yourself because you saw a sliver of some chance to cope. If it’s striking that much of a nerve that you need to grasp at so many straws to attempt to defend carnism this poorly out of nowhere, then go vegan for fuck’s sake.
Thank you for the very detailed response. This is a discussion about piracy. It’s interesting to speak of coping and projection. You know a lot of the most hateful homophobes keep coming out of the closet as gay? I think this kind of hate is very prevalent in our society. Basically you hate that somebody who doesn’t share your moral restrictions, who is out there enjoying life without a care in the world. A kind of moral jealousy. “I have to live with this burden and it’s unfair for somebody else to live without it”. I said it in my original comment and now I will emphasize it in response to your wall of text. Your contempt for me is the same as closet gay homophobes. In this analogy my love for cheese is gay sex, and you think you hate it because your religion (your moral code) is correct, but you actually hate it because you are deprived of it, and it’s unfair that I can enjoy it without guilt. This brings us full circle to the original question about why I think some people view piracy negatively.
It seems you think that all non-vegans must be ignorant. “If only 90% of the population would read the scientific literature or if they were aware of how their animal products came to market, they’d all be vegan”. I am aware of the indirect consequences of my actions and I carry on so I must be some kind of monster. Clearly I am not your brother in Christ, rather a spawn of Satan or perhaps worse. Perhaps I’m just a creature of this earth. A natural consequence of everything up until now.
It is absolutely futile. Being a vegan is like recycling. If it makes you feel better about your life, good. But anybody with the privilege to debate such things, with the worldwide industrial grocery selection to even contemplate veganism, has a huge wake of environmental destruction associated with existing. All the fuel that’s been burned, all of the lumber, loss of habitat for your dwelling. Every time you bathe a freshwater fish or amphibian dries up. Don’t worry about it. I forgive you. It’s not your fault. It’s not your burden. You are a worthy allocation of this planets resources. Thank you for your insight.
Why do you think animals do not have consciousness? Do human animals have consciousness? And are non-human animal brains not remarkably similar to our own? Did we not come out of the same stuff, live on the same earth, and evolve from the same common ancestors? It seems the logical default to assume that non-human animals do experience the world in much the same way you or I do.
You are not logged in. However you can subscribe from another Fediverse account, for example Lemmy or Mastodon. To do this, paste the following into the search field of your instance: !piracy@lemmy.dbzer0.com
⚓ Dedicated to the discussion of digital piracy, including ethical problems and legal advancements.
There’s no projection. I feel no guilt for eating the diet of every single one of my ancestors. Zero. I do not believe animals to be sentient, and I do not equate death or servitude with suffering. It’s not that I don’t understand vegans. I do. But it’s like a religion - you have a fundamental belief, not in god, but in the consciousness of animals. Because we differ on that fundamental belief, we can reach no understanding about the ethics beyond that.
And I think it is a fair comparison. People who pay for media may also see it as an ethical baseline to pay for what you consume. And in both the case of vegans, and those who pay for streaming, the perceived benefit of that choice is in my opinion fundamentally flawed. But it’s really not a big deal to me. I was just trying to answer OPs question. I think your response only validates my analogy. Thank you.
Appeal to tradition.
Objectively false belief. Source
Also, saying “I do not equate death or servitude with suffering” is just using an absurd personal opinion to invalidate objective considerations. It’d be like me saying, “I don’t associate shouting slurs at racial minorities with racism,” to validate such an act. In either case, neither distortion serves as a justification for this wicked behavior.
False equivalence. One belief is speculative and far more abstract, but the other belief has legitimate concrete evidence to support it. Once again, read the very comprehensive analysis.
Again, this is a false equivalence, and it seems that you are abusing the notion of morality being subjective in order to justify an immoral act. You could also easily say something like “People who refrain from assaulting innocent people see it as an ethical baseline, but I don’t” as a bad attempt at justifying assaulting innocent people, but it won’t hold weight on its own. You have to provide a solid basis for why such an equivalence actually makes sense, but you do not. You just state it like it’s plainly obvious and doesn’t need further details.
This is so copey that it hardly deserves a full-fledged response. Please know that this comment isn’t the “own” you think it is. You’re embarrassing yourself.
OOC if I had a pet pig. Loved it. Gave it a full and happy life safe and warm in my house until one day it died of old age. Would it be okay to give the body to my destitute neighbours so they can feed their dogs?
Edit 21hrs later: Your silence speaks volumes
No because their dog is also morally inferior for eating meat and should also be punished.
Insects, crustaceans, and mollusks do not have any form of consciousness. They are just as aware and alive as fungi and plants. Otherwise we would feel great remorse when examining all the slaughtered insects on the front of our motor vehicles. Fish, are slightly more aware, but I don’t attach much emotional weight to their very tiny brains. Birds and mammals are on a higher level of consciousness than a lot of the animal kingdom. But not all death is painful. Many humans seek a dignified and painless death.
Domesticated animals for the most part have the ability to escape, if they wanted to express their consciousness and free will. The process of domestication is an evolutionary choice. Chickens and other livestock are suffering today because their ancestors gave away their freedom for security.
Actually I think dogs collectively suffer more than most of our livestock. For them, death is out of reach. Their suffering is prolonged. Their mutations and genetic deficiencies are cruel. Many dogs are born with such horrible genes and behaviors they have no hope of a quality life with humans. Very sad.
Anyway, there is no objective truth on this matter. But I know you care so much about suffering, I just want to reassure you, that I feel no sorrow for livestock. Everything we eat and purchase impacts the animals on this planet. To exist is to impose suffering on the Earth. And I’m okay with that. My opinion, is that vegans are drawing a line in sand so feint that it is erased by the slightest breeze.
You are a disgusting human. I’m actually appalled reading the shit you’re writing. It’s not often that I read such concentrated evil. You don’t think death and servitude cause suffering? You think domesticated animals choose to stay in factory farms? You’re a fucking ghoul.
I am sorry your world view is causing you anguish.
Hypocrit.
Don’t pretend to have empathy for me, shithead
I’m quite sincere. I used to drive my car in a hurry for years. It’s no way to live. I caused myself a lot of unnecessary stress. At the time of course I blamed my stress on all the slow, distracted shitheads. But they’re infinite, and out of my control. But one thing is in my control: how I react. I made a decision one day that I would never drive in a hurry. That it would take how long it takes. It’s been a lot better since then.
Just like the shitheads on the road, you will find no short supply of people who don’t share your world view. If they upset you, it’s a rough road ahead. I hope you find peace. ☮︎
First of all, current data on the sentience of insects, crustaceans, and mollusks are, at the most, uncertain regarding whether or not these animals have sentience, not definitively conclusive in the direction of them not having sentience. And even if they were to actually not be sentient, this is honestly just a red herring unless these are the ONLY animals that you are responsible for the enslavement, exploitation, and slaughter of, but you are clearly very disingenuous. Other animals that you endorse being exploited and tortured, such as cows and pigs, objectively have been confirmed to have consciousness (read the fucking study), so how is this even relevant? As far as the point about running them over with motor vehicles, some degree of animal suffering like this is inevitable, but to purport that the existence of inevitable unintentional animal suffering justifies deliberately funding farm animals being shoved into gas chambers just for personal pleasure is nothing more than an appeal to futility fallacy. Humans have died in the construction of houses, but I’m not seeing you say that it’s okay to deliberately murder humans to eat them simply because so many people are living in houses and they cannot guarantee that the construction of such houses did not cause any human death.
“I don’t attach much emotional weight to their very tiny brains.”
By you using such “I” phrasing, you are inadvertently admitting that you are not going off of scientific consensus (which you’ve already proved yourself to be really fucking bad at anyway), but rather “personal vibes about their tiny brains, bro.” Like, even this study provides support for this claim within the very first sentence of its abstract, in addition to all of the intricacies pertaining to the research conducted to gain this information, of course.
This is irrelevant, as we don’t necessarily say that it is morally acceptable to take the life of a human so long as you do it in a painless way. In these scenarios, you are referring to a human going through a “dignified and painless death.” These often involve matters of consensual euthanasia and/or mental illness.
If someone went into your house while you were sleeping at 3 AM and did an instantly lethal, painless blow to your head with a firearm, would you consider that morally acceptable due to the “painless” nature of the death?
I am baffled by how much you can reach. You are claiming that because humans have been able to seize the wild ancestors of modern-day domesticated farm animals, that means these animals “gave their freedom away.” You’re so rhetorically illiterate that I keep thinking with each read of your words that I will not see mental gymnastics more absurd than what you’ve already put out, but you keep proving me wrong! This is also a baseless claim, as you obviously were not around to witness how humans went about capturing these wild ancestors. It reeks of a victim-blaming mentality as well, saying that “If the animals didn’t want humans to exploit them, they should’ve just escaped!” This is not shocking for someone who “does not equate death or servitude with suffering,” though.
As far as the animals we have today, domesticated animals cannot last in the wild, so escaping could lead them into a dangerous situation as well; that’s exactly why we call them DOMESTICATED. Exploitative humans have selectively bred and genetically modified these animals to be meat, milk, and egg-producing machines. By utilizing manmade restraining devices, such as those that are literally called r— racks. I should add, humans keep these animals unable to escape, but they still try to escape in whatever capacity they can.
Wait a minute. I thought that you did not believe in the sentience of animals, so why do you worry about dogs? You’re contradicting yourself! Also, yes, dogs are also victims of speciesism, human supremacy, and animal exploitation, so don’t support the pet industry, and if you want to be logically consistent, eschew the dairy, egg, and meat industry while you’re at it.
There are studies that objectively indicate these things, but seeing as how undialectical and unscientific you are, you have deliberately chosen to neglect the actual peer-reviewed studies I have sent you because you know that being faced with information that makes a strong case against your already abhorrent rhetoric would strike too much of a nerve.
Saying “I feel no sorrow for livestock” is just giving your personal opinion on a matter, but lacking sympathy for another sentient being still does not serve as a moral justification for the exploitation and slaughtering of that sentient being. If a Klansman said, “I feel no sorrow for black people,” surely you wouldn’t think that his lynchings are now morally justified, right?
Once again, this is an appeal to futility. Yes, we all cause some degree of harm and suffering just by existing, but that doesn’t mean deliberately going out of your way to uphold harm and suffering is morally acceptable, and it certainly does not make the slavery aspect of animal oppression morally acceptable either. This isn’t about whether or not you’re okay with these things. Morality is a two-way street, just like how the Klansman in that hypothetical isn’t morally justified by neglecting the interests of his black victims and only focusing on what he thinks alone.
My brother in Christ, you are the one who literally rejected fish sentience on the basis of pure vibes rather than evidence. If you’re going back to what you said about insects, crustaceans, and mollusks, then once again, I challenge you to tell me exactly how that justifies what you’re doing to animals that are not within those categories. You also seem to have sympathy for dogs even though you literally stated, “I do not believe animals to be sentient, and I do not equate death or servitude with suffering,” so whose lines are arbitrary again?
I nearly spared you this because you are so deeply unserious and one of the worst instances of a rhetorically illiterate carnist who spouts absurd takes in an effort to come off as some degree of logically consistent, but quite frankly, it’d truthfully just be far more honorable for you to own up to your shortcomings here.
You didn’t even have to bring up veganism to begin with, as the original thread has nothing to do with it. You brought it upon yourself because you saw a sliver of some chance to cope. If it’s striking that much of a nerve that you need to grasp at so many straws to attempt to defend carnism this poorly out of nowhere, then go vegan for fuck’s sake.
Thank you for the very detailed response. This is a discussion about piracy. It’s interesting to speak of coping and projection. You know a lot of the most hateful homophobes keep coming out of the closet as gay? I think this kind of hate is very prevalent in our society. Basically you hate that somebody who doesn’t share your moral restrictions, who is out there enjoying life without a care in the world. A kind of moral jealousy. “I have to live with this burden and it’s unfair for somebody else to live without it”. I said it in my original comment and now I will emphasize it in response to your wall of text. Your contempt for me is the same as closet gay homophobes. In this analogy my love for cheese is gay sex, and you think you hate it because your religion (your moral code) is correct, but you actually hate it because you are deprived of it, and it’s unfair that I can enjoy it without guilt. This brings us full circle to the original question about why I think some people view piracy negatively.
It seems you think that all non-vegans must be ignorant. “If only 90% of the population would read the scientific literature or if they were aware of how their animal products came to market, they’d all be vegan”. I am aware of the indirect consequences of my actions and I carry on so I must be some kind of monster. Clearly I am not your brother in Christ, rather a spawn of Satan or perhaps worse. Perhaps I’m just a creature of this earth. A natural consequence of everything up until now.
It is absolutely futile. Being a vegan is like recycling. If it makes you feel better about your life, good. But anybody with the privilege to debate such things, with the worldwide industrial grocery selection to even contemplate veganism, has a huge wake of environmental destruction associated with existing. All the fuel that’s been burned, all of the lumber, loss of habitat for your dwelling. Every time you bathe a freshwater fish or amphibian dries up. Don’t worry about it. I forgive you. It’s not your fault. It’s not your burden. You are a worthy allocation of this planets resources. Thank you for your insight.
You’re the one who brought up veganism you complete fucking clown
And, it seems from the response that it was a spot on analogy.
I can see how you’d think that if you didn’t make any attempt at all to understand what Angel was trying to tell you.
Whoosh. Clearly I lack the reading comprehension to understand. I just need to look at the facts harder and then I’ll become vegan.
Holy mother of red flags.
Why do you think animals do not have consciousness? Do human animals have consciousness? And are non-human animal brains not remarkably similar to our own? Did we not come out of the same stuff, live on the same earth, and evolve from the same common ancestors? It seems the logical default to assume that non-human animals do experience the world in much the same way you or I do.
And why do you believe that?
So you wouldn’t have any objections if you were taken as a slave and worked to death, right? Because those aren’t suffering?