By Ralph Nader March 5, 2024 Since the Hamas raid penetrated the multi-tiered Israeli border security on October 7, 2023 (an unexplained collapse of Israel’s defensive capabilities), 2.3 million utterly defenseless Palestinians in the tiny crowded Gaza enclave have been on the receiving end of over 65,000 bombs/missiles plus non-stop…
Hamas and Gaza Health Ministry are two very different entities.
The numbers of dead reported, which is what this whole article and thread is about, is reported by the Gaza Health Ministry. Casting doubt on the credibility of Hamas’ death counts is casting doubt on the credibility of the GHM, because that’s where their numbers come from.
The analogy between the slavery era US government and Likud breaks down for a few different reasons.
The analogy was of 2 subjugated peoples who resisted their subjugators with violence, and are then condemned for it.
Isn’t that literally exactly what I said in my original message?
No, you said that Likud supports Hamas because (in your claim) Hamas is opposed to peace. In reality, Israel doesn’t care about the goals of the Gaza government, they care about whether international organizations will work with them. Hamas is not opposed to peace, they are opposed to setting up an open-air prison with slow starvation, no self-determination, apartheid status for its people, and frequent bombings… and calling it peace. They also know that Israel will never actually create a true state for the Palestinians willingly. If that’s ever going to happen, it’s going to have to be forced by one group or another (or more likely, sadly, it just won’t ever happen).
If you ambush a music festival and kill hundreds of unarmed people, you’re a monster, and you’re going to hell.
People do terrible things when pushed to the brink. Doesn’t excuse it, but it is the only outcome of pushing people there. Israel should have some introspection as to why they seem to create so many monsters.
Casting doubt on the credibility of Hamas’ death counts is casting doubt on the credibility of the GHM, because that’s where their numbers come from.
I made an edit. Generally speaking, I agree with this statement. It doesn’t mean I agree with Hamas. That’s the main point I was making in my original comment.
You do realize that I’m the one that posted this not exactly pro-Israel article, right? I.e. I’m on your side on a certain amount of this, at least?
The analogy was of 2 subjugated peoples who resisted their subjugators with violence, and are then condemned for it.
I don’t condemn Hamas for resisting their subjugators with violence. I condemn them for doing it in a corrupt, stupid, and counterproductive way, to the point that Likud wants to support them because them being around is so good for accomplishing Likud’s mission.
No, you said that Likud supports Hamas because (in your claim) Hamas is opposed to peace.
I made an edit with some backing for my statement that Hamas doesn’t support peace, through either violent or nonviolent means.
Peace, to me, means peace. Means 80-90% of people just want to do their farms and raise their children and be left alone. So your aim is to let them do that. If you need to fight to preserve that, because your back’s to the wall and you have enemies coming and killing you, taking your homes, then fine. I get that, it makes perfect sense to me. It’s necessary, it’s standing up for your country. Do your killing and fight your war with it fixed firmly in your mind when on some distant day your families and your community might be able to live and just do their business and all the guns and bombs can be buried. That’s the goal.
If you’re of the opinion that any peaceful business being done by anybody, any progress whether fake or real, all of that has to go on hold, for your allies and enemies alike, so that you inflame the killing and bring a real war, with the aim of finally reaching this distant day when all your enemies are dead, women and little children, the guilty and the innocent, then I don’t support you.
I get the idea of needing to resist the open-air prison that Israel calls “peace,” and the unconscionable crime that the West in general is committing by supporting Israel in its apartheid and its slaughter. I don’t know what the answer is to that. I wish I did, I really do… All I’m saying is, killing a bunch of people at a music festival isn’t it. I mean, how did it work out? Are things peaceful now?
You do realize that I’m the one that posted this not exactly pro-Israel article, right? I.e. I’m on your side on a certain amount of this, at least?
I apologize; I am very sensitive on this topic, and I was being too aggressive.
If you’re of the opinion that any peaceful business being done by anybody, any progress whether fake or real, all of that has to go on hold, for your allies and enemies alike, so that you inflame the killing and bring a real war, with the aim of finally reaching this distant day when all your enemies are dead, women and little children, the guilty and the innocent, then I don’t support you.
Agreed. Violence becomes self-perpetuating at a certain point because a desire for peace takes a back seat to revenge, or peace only on one side’s strict terms. I’m not sure I’m ready to declare that dynamic present in Gaza, though; Hamas has never existed outside of Israel’s violence, so it’s impossible to say whether they would eschew true peace in favor of revenge or not, seeing as they’ve never been given the option.
I apologize; I am very sensitive on this topic, and I was being too aggressive.
All good 👍🏻
Hamas has never existed outside of Israel’s violence, so it’s impossible to say whether they would eschew true peace in favor of revenge or not, seeing as they’ve never been given the option.
Yeah. That occurred to me as I was quoting my stuff… like at this point, what the fuck else are they going to say. And even then they’re hedging it a little bit, saying that they’d accept a cease-fire and the 1967 borders as long as it’s “not permanent” (not that Israel would agree to that anyway.)
So yeah maybe it’s unfair to say they wouldn’t want peace if there was realistic peace in front of them.
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The numbers of dead reported, which is what this whole article and thread is about, is reported by the Gaza Health Ministry. Casting doubt on the credibility of Hamas’ death counts is casting doubt on the credibility of the GHM, because that’s where their numbers come from.
The analogy was of 2 subjugated peoples who resisted their subjugators with violence, and are then condemned for it.
No, you said that Likud supports Hamas because (in your claim) Hamas is opposed to peace. In reality, Israel doesn’t care about the goals of the Gaza government, they care about whether international organizations will work with them. Hamas is not opposed to peace, they are opposed to setting up an open-air prison with slow starvation, no self-determination, apartheid status for its people, and frequent bombings… and calling it peace. They also know that Israel will never actually create a true state for the Palestinians willingly. If that’s ever going to happen, it’s going to have to be forced by one group or another (or more likely, sadly, it just won’t ever happen).
People do terrible things when pushed to the brink. Doesn’t excuse it, but it is the only outcome of pushing people there. Israel should have some introspection as to why they seem to create so many monsters.
I made an edit. Generally speaking, I agree with this statement. It doesn’t mean I agree with Hamas. That’s the main point I was making in my original comment.
You do realize that I’m the one that posted this not exactly pro-Israel article, right? I.e. I’m on your side on a certain amount of this, at least?
I don’t condemn Hamas for resisting their subjugators with violence. I condemn them for doing it in a corrupt, stupid, and counterproductive way, to the point that Likud wants to support them because them being around is so good for accomplishing Likud’s mission.
I made an edit with some backing for my statement that Hamas doesn’t support peace, through either violent or nonviolent means.
Peace, to me, means peace. Means 80-90% of people just want to do their farms and raise their children and be left alone. So your aim is to let them do that. If you need to fight to preserve that, because your back’s to the wall and you have enemies coming and killing you, taking your homes, then fine. I get that, it makes perfect sense to me. It’s necessary, it’s standing up for your country. Do your killing and fight your war with it fixed firmly in your mind when on some distant day your families and your community might be able to live and just do their business and all the guns and bombs can be buried. That’s the goal.
If you’re of the opinion that any peaceful business being done by anybody, any progress whether fake or real, all of that has to go on hold, for your allies and enemies alike, so that you inflame the killing and bring a real war, with the aim of finally reaching this distant day when all your enemies are dead, women and little children, the guilty and the innocent, then I don’t support you.
I get the idea of needing to resist the open-air prison that Israel calls “peace,” and the unconscionable crime that the West in general is committing by supporting Israel in its apartheid and its slaughter. I don’t know what the answer is to that. I wish I did, I really do… All I’m saying is, killing a bunch of people at a music festival isn’t it. I mean, how did it work out? Are things peaceful now?
I apologize; I am very sensitive on this topic, and I was being too aggressive.
Agreed. Violence becomes self-perpetuating at a certain point because a desire for peace takes a back seat to revenge, or peace only on one side’s strict terms. I’m not sure I’m ready to declare that dynamic present in Gaza, though; Hamas has never existed outside of Israel’s violence, so it’s impossible to say whether they would eschew true peace in favor of revenge or not, seeing as they’ve never been given the option.
All good 👍🏻
Yeah. That occurred to me as I was quoting my stuff… like at this point, what the fuck else are they going to say. And even then they’re hedging it a little bit, saying that they’d accept a cease-fire and the 1967 borders as long as it’s “not permanent” (not that Israel would agree to that anyway.)
So yeah maybe it’s unfair to say they wouldn’t want peace if there was realistic peace in front of them.