Hello, ElPlywood. Thanks for participating, and I appreciate your passion! I'll try to answer the first few here as best as I can. 1 Why do you...
“I think what you’re reacting to is that, at the moment, Biden is an unpopular president seeking a second term while Trump is a popular figure inside his party who is winning primary races. I wouldn’t necessarily compare the two.”
You stay home and wake up in a nightmare where Trump uses his power to usurp the presidency and end democracy, because that’s exactly what he and his followers want.
I actually don’t even agree that Biden is a “lesser evil” in the first place, I’ve talked about it
But even accepting for a second the premise that there’s nothing to support about Biden, I like how to these guys the lesson of 2016 and Hilary Clinton is “let’s refuse to support the establishment candidate against someone who’s clearly worse, what harm could come of it?”
I very much believe – I’m being completely serious about this – that 4chan making good memes about Trump becoming president, because it really is just inherently a funny idea, had a lot to do with elevating him from 0 support to a little kernel of popularity that could start to grow into something.
Boomers don’t pay attention to 4Chan. It’s such a small segment of the population.
Gen X and Millennials pay attention to South Park, though. They see that “douche vs. turd sandwich” bit and think “Hey, that applies to our situation now!” Then they stay home in protest, because they don’t like certain aspects of Hillary’s campaign and ideals, as opposed to hating every aspect that Trump does or represents.
It’s not about picking the “lesser evil”. It’s about having realistic expectations and analyzing the situation as a whole. During the primaries, you pick the candidate you want. During the general election, you pick the party you want, even if your primary pick didn’t win. That’s it.
So you will support it with inaction? There is no magic third door here. Both sides are pro-genocide, one can be worked on, one cannot. Vote blue to stop the worst, keep protesting to change the discussion. Sword and shield.
My Republican family members are 100% behind the murder of all Palestinians. No aid. No ceasefire talks. Inaction will allow those people to call the shots. What use are morals if they don’t save anyone?
I need you to understand this first—the slate is never clean. No one makes better decisions under increased chaos and uncertainty. Ever. They don’t learn. They don’t find their better selves. They use the hardship to justify atrocity. Why do you think rural communities are the way they are? People won’t suddenly open their eyes and say golly gee those leftists were right, we are all in this together and let us all put our best foot forward. Tomorrow is always yoked to yesterday. No matter how unfair, no matter how unjust, you can never raze enough of what came before to start again fresh. There is nothing that works but gradual change.
Do not take my word for this. Start reading. You are ready for pain and death and to drink the hot blood of our enemies for the glorious revolution. But what the revolution really needs from you, is for you to suffer through some boring ass books. No shortcuts. No meme politics. No youtube activism. If this is not a thing you are willing to do, if this feels like throwing damp sand on the fire, I need you to think critically about that.
Do you want equitable change or is it more important to keep that rage burning? If so how does that make you any different from a drunk on outrage MAGA fuckwit?
Use all the tools at hand to save as many as you can. This means not letting the orange fucker back into power. You can vote blue and put a brick through the AIPAC’s office window if you so choose. All good lefties learn to walk and chew gum at the same time.
So in summary because 70,000 Palestinians died… you think the lives of the million people sheltering in Rafah are forfeit? …Because once they started the genocide they might as all be dead anyways? What the fuck mate. Do you need someone to tell you that’s fucked up? That is fucked up.
And when did I say appeal to conservatives? Read mine again. You suggested plunging the worst off of America into suffering would magically cure them of their centrist tendencies. Reality is, where there is instability and inequality people grasp on to shitty xenophobic rhetoric to justify holding on to anything. I’m begging you. Read some history. Show me an example where dismantling the existing power structure in a time of instability worked. Not in the past 40 years. In the past 1,000.
Is it enough? Fuck no. I’m not happy about him funding the Israelis before during and after all of that either. In particular, the line “impose restrictions on the use of U.S.-made offensive weapons by the IDF in Gaza” jumped out at me pretty much as I’m sure it did to you.
On most things I’ll defend Biden; on Israel and Gaza I won’t. He’s the latest in a long string of leaders who’s okay with arming the Israelis so they can kill innocent Palestinians, and blocking any attempt to stop them. I’m fine with clinging to a small hope that he’s planning on changing for the better. A lot of un-heard-of things have been happening in the last few years: Big climate change legislation, student loan forgiveness, a bill for federal marijuana legalization, stuff that was way beyond the limits during the Obama years. If Israel is the next one of those, then great. But I’m not holding my breath and I don’t think it excuses four months of death and allegiance to the worst country in the mideast. I’m only bringing up those small examples above to say, that’s more than most US leaders and way, way more than Trump would do for Palestine.
The absolute nerve of trying to wave Palestinian lives around as if that serves as some kind of a defense of the people actively funding their murder at this very moment. Absolutely detatched from reality. To try and guilt people because they won’t vote for that is unconscionable.
Okay, let me do it again: Trump’s said he wants to “finish the problem” in Gaza. Personally, I believe he means it and that’s how he plans to wield power with a second term. If you bring that to power, instead of someone who’s merely on the grim neoliberal a-little-genocide-is-okay-but-maybe-let’s-do-better-in-the-future trajectory, then all those dead people are on you.
To bring Hitler to power, because Germany’s colonial adventures before that created enslavement, starvation, and slaughter (because they did), and so you can’t see a difference between Hitler and the establishment Germans, is unconscionable. That’s you. That’s what you’re doing.
Yes, I’ll hold you partly responsible for all the dead Palestinians, Ukrainians, Americans, and whoever else at the end of whatever Trump does if you think there’s no problem with actively bringing him to power and don’t want to actively work to stop it.
The absolute nerve of trying to wave Palestinian lives around as if that serves as some kind of a defense of the people actively funding their murder at this very moment. Absolutely detatched from reality. To try and guilt people because they won’t vote for that is unconscionable.
In November there are two outcomes. This is reality. One has a higher death count. Showing up and voting blue is the least one can do. There is no virtue that costs innocent lives.
So in summary because 70,000 Palestinians died… you think the lives of the million people sheltering in Rafah are forfeit?
Yeah that jumped out at me too
Like fast forward two years, Trump is giving on-the-ground military assistance to Israel instead of whatever milquetoast diplomatic resistance Biden is doing so far which is still better than the American average. The second war has started, and there’s carpet bombing of Palestinian cities with American intel assistance, all the food aid has stopped, and we don’t even attend UN meetings anymore.
And then go to Palestine and say “Sorry about all this. You could have had the status quo, but I could never vote for someone who supports a genocide, period. So don’t blame me for it. Fuck gradual change.”
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Look, you have two choices:
Agree
I actually don’t even agree that Biden is a “lesser evil” in the first place, I’ve talked about it
But even accepting for a second the premise that there’s nothing to support about Biden, I like how to these guys the lesson of 2016 and Hilary Clinton is “let’s refuse to support the establishment candidate against someone who’s clearly worse, what harm could come of it?”
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I blame South Park.
I very much believe – I’m being completely serious about this – that 4chan making good memes about Trump becoming president, because it really is just inherently a funny idea, had a lot to do with elevating him from 0 support to a little kernel of popularity that could start to grow into something.
Boomers don’t pay attention to 4Chan. It’s such a small segment of the population.
Gen X and Millennials pay attention to South Park, though. They see that “douche vs. turd sandwich” bit and think “Hey, that applies to our situation now!” Then they stay home in protest, because they don’t like certain aspects of Hillary’s campaign and ideals, as opposed to hating every aspect that Trump does or represents.
It’s not about picking the “lesser evil”. It’s about having realistic expectations and analyzing the situation as a whole. During the primaries, you pick the candidate you want. During the general election, you pick the party you want, even if your primary pick didn’t win. That’s it.
I honestly agree and America is the dumbass that microwaved their iPhone to charge it.
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So you will support it with inaction? There is no magic third door here. Both sides are pro-genocide, one can be worked on, one cannot. Vote blue to stop the worst, keep protesting to change the discussion. Sword and shield.
My Republican family members are 100% behind the murder of all Palestinians. No aid. No ceasefire talks. Inaction will allow those people to call the shots. What use are morals if they don’t save anyone?
deleted by creator
I need you to understand this first—the slate is never clean. No one makes better decisions under increased chaos and uncertainty. Ever. They don’t learn. They don’t find their better selves. They use the hardship to justify atrocity. Why do you think rural communities are the way they are? People won’t suddenly open their eyes and say golly gee those leftists were right, we are all in this together and let us all put our best foot forward. Tomorrow is always yoked to yesterday. No matter how unfair, no matter how unjust, you can never raze enough of what came before to start again fresh. There is nothing that works but gradual change.
Do not take my word for this. Start reading. You are ready for pain and death and to drink the hot blood of our enemies for the glorious revolution. But what the revolution really needs from you, is for you to suffer through some boring ass books. No shortcuts. No meme politics. No youtube activism. If this is not a thing you are willing to do, if this feels like throwing damp sand on the fire, I need you to think critically about that.
Do you want equitable change or is it more important to keep that rage burning? If so how does that make you any different from a drunk on outrage MAGA fuckwit?
Use all the tools at hand to save as many as you can. This means not letting the orange fucker back into power. You can vote blue and put a brick through the AIPAC’s office window if you so choose. All good lefties learn to walk and chew gum at the same time.
He might as well play Disco Elysium to show how ridiculous he sounds.
I think I missed out not getting this game.
You can still get it.
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So in summary because 70,000 Palestinians died… you think the lives of the million people sheltering in Rafah are forfeit? …Because once they started the genocide they might as all be dead anyways? What the fuck mate. Do you need someone to tell you that’s fucked up? That is fucked up.
And when did I say appeal to conservatives? Read mine again. You suggested plunging the worst off of America into suffering would magically cure them of their centrist tendencies. Reality is, where there is instability and inequality people grasp on to shitty xenophobic rhetoric to justify holding on to anything. I’m begging you. Read some history. Show me an example where dismantling the existing power structure in a time of instability worked. Not in the past 40 years. In the past 1,000.
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https://time.com/6591139/biden-israel-executive-order-sanctions/
https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/article-791654
https://www.npr.org/2024/03/13/1237616100/israel-hamas-war-gaza-aid-un-food-ships
https://www.axios.com/2024/03/12/biden-netanyahu-israel-gaza-war-red-lines
Is it enough? Fuck no. I’m not happy about him funding the Israelis before during and after all of that either. In particular, the line “impose restrictions on the use of U.S.-made offensive weapons by the IDF in Gaza” jumped out at me pretty much as I’m sure it did to you.
On most things I’ll defend Biden; on Israel and Gaza I won’t. He’s the latest in a long string of leaders who’s okay with arming the Israelis so they can kill innocent Palestinians, and blocking any attempt to stop them. I’m fine with clinging to a small hope that he’s planning on changing for the better. A lot of un-heard-of things have been happening in the last few years: Big climate change legislation, student loan forgiveness, a bill for federal marijuana legalization, stuff that was way beyond the limits during the Obama years. If Israel is the next one of those, then great. But I’m not holding my breath and I don’t think it excuses four months of death and allegiance to the worst country in the mideast. I’m only bringing up those small examples above to say, that’s more than most US leaders and way, way more than Trump would do for Palestine.
Okay, let me do it again: Trump’s said he wants to “finish the problem” in Gaza. Personally, I believe he means it and that’s how he plans to wield power with a second term. If you bring that to power, instead of someone who’s merely on the grim neoliberal a-little-genocide-is-okay-but-maybe-let’s-do-better-in-the-future trajectory, then all those dead people are on you.
To bring Hitler to power, because Germany’s colonial adventures before that created enslavement, starvation, and slaughter (because they did), and so you can’t see a difference between Hitler and the establishment Germans, is unconscionable. That’s you. That’s what you’re doing.
Yes, I’ll hold you partly responsible for all the dead Palestinians, Ukrainians, Americans, and whoever else at the end of whatever Trump does if you think there’s no problem with actively bringing him to power and don’t want to actively work to stop it.
What’s your plan? I’m listening.
edit:
In November there are two outcomes. This is reality. One has a higher death count. Showing up and voting blue is the least one can do. There is no virtue that costs innocent lives.
Yeah that jumped out at me too
Like fast forward two years, Trump is giving on-the-ground military assistance to Israel instead of whatever milquetoast diplomatic resistance Biden is doing so far which is still better than the American average. The second war has started, and there’s carpet bombing of Palestinian cities with American intel assistance, all the food aid has stopped, and we don’t even attend UN meetings anymore.
And then go to Palestine and say “Sorry about all this. You could have had the status quo, but I could never vote for someone who supports a genocide, period. So don’t blame me for it. Fuck gradual change.”
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