Im aware one of the few ways to get some decent salary here is do contract work. Same job as regular employee but 2x the salary. Ofc no sick leave, etc.
Still US companies pay according to my union statistics 30-80% more and they cant go around the law.
Isn’t the question rather “why do US companies do that” when they could get away with paying less?
I can only speak for myself but I’m not keen on constantly job-hunting like I see so many US engineer advise. I’m looking for a more stable situation where the company seeks to hire long-term, and often in those cases you get benefits that are not monetary. Free access to partnered places like fitness studios or swimming pools can’t really be rolled into your salary, but if you use those often you end up with a financial benefit too. Automatical raises when your child is born is another.
Maybe it’s just a different culture, but I’ll trade in some base salary for a work environment based on mutual trust and goodwill.
Yes, any day of the week. OP is either trolling (which I heavily lean toward at this point), has an incredibly narrow world view, or is an edgy 16-year-old who identifies as libertarian.
I’ll admit I got annoyed that OP seemed to almost deliberately misunderstand or discount other perspectives or answers. It makes their pretty open question seem disingenuous. I assume people ask questions because they’re interested in other people’s perspectives on a topic, rather than just wanting to hear that they are right?
Possibly OP just failed to communicate why they feel as they feel with regards to the relative value of welfare systems, taxes, and salary (they clarified somewhat later in another thread), but it’s frustrating to see other people’s well thought-out answers being discounted or strawmanned without actually being refuted. That rings my troll warning bell, or imo is a sign of someone who can only see the world through one particular lens.
I didnt expect so many replies and its hard to keep with comments so sometimes I may have skimmed some replies too fast (like your comment on taxes for companies ;)). Im also on phone.
People have also started talking about welfare and taxation which is irrelevant to the question which was why US companies pay more (pre-tax). I think this dereiled and I wanted to edit the post to l clarify but my mobile client doesnt have edit post functionality yet. I have to admit I got a bit annoyed because that had nothing to do with my question and turned into a us vs europe welfare/benefits which has nothing to do with pre-tax salaries. When broght that even in Europe with the same welfare and benefits US companies pay mroe people still kept talking about welfare. Its a bit annoying to be fair
I mean you don’t have to constantly job hunt but you have the option of doing so if you want to maximize money. And enough people doing so raises the compensation for everyone even if they don’t job hunt constantly.
Maybe there already lies another reason for the lower salaries - if you are from a country which traditionally had your company actually appreciate their employees and make them feel valued, and historically you just had to land your job and could expect to stay with the company the rest of your life, you will not be actively looking unless you get laid off. Loyalty on both sides is still quite common where I live.
Loyalty is all great until a depression comes or a bad decission causes layoffs. Then suddenly all the loyalty and being a family means nothing. I think back in the days when 5% raises were the norm and you could buy a house in 5 years on one income being loyal made sense. Now since companies do not keep up with inflation and the standards of living are so high I believe its in your best interest to do whatever its needed to get a better job. If staying in the same company gives you that its great but most often than not changing jobs often and testing the market will do you better imho.
Most people take these statistics where I work and are very reliable. Theyre so reliable than when you go take a salary negotiation they pull them out and say you should get around that and its not much more you can get usually. Unless the company is american. Then again 30-80% more than average is expected according to these surveys which have been correct so far everytime Ive used them.
Its so ridiculous than a newly graduated engineer that is lucky to work for an american company can get more salary than a person with 20 years experience in an average company. And thats why I created the post why do americans pay more even outside of America.
The thing I was pointing out is that you have a union. Unions are actively and aggressively busted by US companies. Almost every US state has “at-will” employment laws that mean you can be laid off at any time for pretty much any reason at the drop of a hat.
All of a sudden that 400K or whatever you were expecting to make this year turned into $0. You no longer have health insurance. Those RSUs you had vesting this year are gone (and those RSUs made up a big chunk of your compensation - that’s how people get into the 300-400K+ a year numbers).
Everyone or almost everyone is in an union here. My point was these statistics that come from the union are very reliable so when I say american companies pay 30-80% more consistently here it is quite accurate. Its not some online poll or something I have heard.
My point still stands that while laws and welfare are different in the US when an american company comes to Europe it must follow its local laws. At that point its the same as a local one but chooses to pay way more.
There is a clear difference in pay between american and non american companies here and that I think can only be attributed to american companies choosing to pay more to attract talent and european ones being more relaxed and pay average attracting more average talent. I think this is a cultural thing where the US is a more competitive country and benefits us (developers).
American companies pay more because they have huge investors. They have huge investors because they know the company won’t have accountability to do things right because they are in America.
I’m not in Europe, but I am in a country with strong employee rights.
Even if I was a contractor, I would still have all the rights of a salaried employee. Employee rights generally cannot be taken away. For example I just straight up am not allowed to work more than five hours without a (paid) meal break. And my employer has to contribute to my retirement fund. They have to pay my federal income tax on my behalf (otherwise my boss goes to jail for tax evasion…). They can only terminate my contract with a valid reason - the government maintains a list of reasons, and they have to take reasonable steps to try to keep me employed (there’s a requirements list for that too), and they have to give me fair notice (or severance pay). None of that can be taken away just because I signed a contract. But a lot of it doesn’t apply if, for example, I only work there for two weeks or if I’m hired for 20 minutes to deliver a pizza (uber eats/etc).
(Strictly speaking… I can sign a contract taking away my rights, but the contract has to replace them with more favourable conditions for the worker… otherwise the contract is invalid and might as well not exist. For example I’ve signed a contract stating I have no sick pay or holiday pay… but in exchange they pay me for both, trusting me to set aside the money so I can afford holidays/unpaid sick leave (I put the money in a savings account that earns 6% interest))
I’m pretty sure it’s similar in the US? Contractors do have full employee rights if they have an employee-like relationship - it’s just US employees don’t have many rights to start with.
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Im aware one of the few ways to get some decent salary here is do contract work. Same job as regular employee but 2x the salary. Ofc no sick leave, etc.
Still US companies pay according to my union statistics 30-80% more and they cant go around the law.
Isn’t the question rather “why do US companies do that” when they could get away with paying less?
I can only speak for myself but I’m not keen on constantly job-hunting like I see so many US engineer advise. I’m looking for a more stable situation where the company seeks to hire long-term, and often in those cases you get benefits that are not monetary. Free access to partnered places like fitness studios or swimming pools can’t really be rolled into your salary, but if you use those often you end up with a financial benefit too. Automatical raises when your child is born is another.
Maybe it’s just a different culture, but I’ll trade in some base salary for a work environment based on mutual trust and goodwill.
Yes, any day of the week. OP is either trolling (which I heavily lean toward at this point), has an incredibly narrow world view, or is an edgy 16-year-old who identifies as libertarian.
I mean as someone who has experienced both the US and Europe I would say this applies to most everyone posting here.
And if we’re going to sling insults then I’ll say it’s hilariously amusing how clearly fragile the egos of the people posting here are.
I’ll admit I got annoyed that OP seemed to almost deliberately misunderstand or discount other perspectives or answers. It makes their pretty open question seem disingenuous. I assume people ask questions because they’re interested in other people’s perspectives on a topic, rather than just wanting to hear that they are right?
Possibly OP just failed to communicate why they feel as they feel with regards to the relative value of welfare systems, taxes, and salary (they clarified somewhat later in another thread), but it’s frustrating to see other people’s well thought-out answers being discounted or strawmanned without actually being refuted. That rings my troll warning bell, or imo is a sign of someone who can only see the world through one particular lens.
I didnt expect so many replies and its hard to keep with comments so sometimes I may have skimmed some replies too fast (like your comment on taxes for companies ;)). Im also on phone.
People have also started talking about welfare and taxation which is irrelevant to the question which was why US companies pay more (pre-tax). I think this dereiled and I wanted to edit the post to l clarify but my mobile client doesnt have edit post functionality yet. I have to admit I got a bit annoyed because that had nothing to do with my question and turned into a us vs europe welfare/benefits which has nothing to do with pre-tax salaries. When broght that even in Europe with the same welfare and benefits US companies pay mroe people still kept talking about welfare. Its a bit annoying to be fair
I mean you don’t have to constantly job hunt but you have the option of doing so if you want to maximize money. And enough people doing so raises the compensation for everyone even if they don’t job hunt constantly.
Maybe there already lies another reason for the lower salaries - if you are from a country which traditionally had your company actually appreciate their employees and make them feel valued, and historically you just had to land your job and could expect to stay with the company the rest of your life, you will not be actively looking unless you get laid off. Loyalty on both sides is still quite common where I live.
Loyalty is all great until a depression comes or a bad decission causes layoffs. Then suddenly all the loyalty and being a family means nothing. I think back in the days when 5% raises were the norm and you could buy a house in 5 years on one income being loyal made sense. Now since companies do not keep up with inflation and the standards of living are so high I believe its in your best interest to do whatever its needed to get a better job. If staying in the same company gives you that its great but most often than not changing jobs often and testing the market will do you better imho.
I mean… you’ve got to be trolling at this point. No one is this clueless.
Most people take these statistics where I work and are very reliable. Theyre so reliable than when you go take a salary negotiation they pull them out and say you should get around that and its not much more you can get usually. Unless the company is american. Then again 30-80% more than average is expected according to these surveys which have been correct so far everytime Ive used them.
Its so ridiculous than a newly graduated engineer that is lucky to work for an american company can get more salary than a person with 20 years experience in an average company. And thats why I created the post why do americans pay more even outside of America.
On the off chance you’re actually serious.
The thing I was pointing out is that you have a union. Unions are actively and aggressively busted by US companies. Almost every US state has “at-will” employment laws that mean you can be laid off at any time for pretty much any reason at the drop of a hat.
All of a sudden that 400K or whatever you were expecting to make this year turned into $0. You no longer have health insurance. Those RSUs you had vesting this year are gone (and those RSUs made up a big chunk of your compensation - that’s how people get into the 300-400K+ a year numbers).
The highs can be high, but the lows are very low.
Everyone or almost everyone is in an union here. My point was these statistics that come from the union are very reliable so when I say american companies pay 30-80% more consistently here it is quite accurate. Its not some online poll or something I have heard.
My point still stands that while laws and welfare are different in the US when an american company comes to Europe it must follow its local laws. At that point its the same as a local one but chooses to pay way more.
There is a clear difference in pay between american and non american companies here and that I think can only be attributed to american companies choosing to pay more to attract talent and european ones being more relaxed and pay average attracting more average talent. I think this is a cultural thing where the US is a more competitive country and benefits us (developers).
American companies pay more because they have huge investors. They have huge investors because they know the company won’t have accountability to do things right because they are in America.
I’m not in Europe, but I am in a country with strong employee rights.
Even if I was a contractor, I would still have all the rights of a salaried employee. Employee rights generally cannot be taken away. For example I just straight up am not allowed to work more than five hours without a (paid) meal break. And my employer has to contribute to my retirement fund. They have to pay my federal income tax on my behalf (otherwise my boss goes to jail for tax evasion…). They can only terminate my contract with a valid reason - the government maintains a list of reasons, and they have to take reasonable steps to try to keep me employed (there’s a requirements list for that too), and they have to give me fair notice (or severance pay). None of that can be taken away just because I signed a contract. But a lot of it doesn’t apply if, for example, I only work there for two weeks or if I’m hired for 20 minutes to deliver a pizza (uber eats/etc).
(Strictly speaking… I can sign a contract taking away my rights, but the contract has to replace them with more favourable conditions for the worker… otherwise the contract is invalid and might as well not exist. For example I’ve signed a contract stating I have no sick pay or holiday pay… but in exchange they pay me for both, trusting me to set aside the money so I can afford holidays/unpaid sick leave (I put the money in a savings account that earns 6% interest))
I’m pretty sure it’s similar in the US? Contractors do have full employee rights if they have an employee-like relationship - it’s just US employees don’t have many rights to start with.