OceanGate was warned that the Titan, which suffered a “catastrophic implosion” on its journey to see the Titanic shipwreck, had serious design flaws.
“I’d like to be remembered as an innovator,” he said, speaking from the interior of one of OceanGate’s submersibles. “I think it was [famous American General Douglas] MacArthur that said, ‘You’re remembered for the rules you break.’”
“I have broken some rules to make this,” he conceded. “I think I’ve broken them with logic and good engineering behind me. The carbon fiber and titanium—there is a rule that you don’t do that. Well, I did.”
Yikes. I appreciate that some people love to do extreme things, but this one just seems like a bad idea. You couldn’t pay me to ever get into a sub like this.
If it was just him and his buddies getting on this sub and doing dangerous voyages then I see no problem.
But to ignore industry experts and invite paying clients onto your ultra-dangerous submarine, well that’s not a good look.
The simple fact that there was no possible egress without outside assistance should have been reason enough to scrap the design. With constant safety issues on what seems like every single one of their dives, I’m actually amazed that the Titan didn’t kill someone sooner.
Honestly, it’s almost certainly possible to make a deep sea tour sub like this that’s reasonably safe, if even more expensive (though given the only clientele for this kind of tourism is so incredibly rich I’m not sure this really matters). Consider that subs capable of operating at this depth have existed for a long time, for example, the Alvin , which was built in the 60s, can go to the wreck of the Titanic and even deeper, and yet still gets used today.
Yeah, James Cameron has been to the Titanic and back 33 times. And to the Mariana Trench, and who knows where else. It’s not impossible to do it safely, but that requires spending money on the correct materials, listening to your engineers, cross checking with third party engineers, and not rushing things. Carbon fiber is a stupid material for a sub hull, using different materials with different expansion and contraction rates for your pressure vessel is a stupid decision, not having a way for the passengers to self-rescue is stupid, using a wireless controller without (multiple) hardwired backups is stupid.
The entire thing reeks of a CEO who doesn’t want to take the time to do things properly in fear of investors losing interest. And I get that fear, I work for a small company as well (not building submarines) and you do have to move quickly with a lot of things. But you DON’T rush things when human safety is a factor.
That sub should have been remotely operated dozens of times and gone through multiple iterations before they ever let a living creature inside it. It should have been x-rayed between every dive to find microfractures in the brittle carbon fiber hull. Multiple prototypes should have been built and extensively tested to find flaws in the design or assembly process.
Wow apparently that Alvin was built by General Mills! (Electronic division.) Like the cereal company. Also it say:
In an emergency, if Alvin were stuck underwater with occupants inside, the outer body, or cladding, of the submersible could be released and discarded using controls inside the hull. The titanium sphere would then rise to the surface uncontrolled.
That’s a good idea. I wonder if they just are not allowed to go on the alvin no matter how much they pay, and thats why they chose other option?
I wasn’t suggesting that they actually use that sub for their tour, the Alvin does have actual work it does (has made some pretty important contributions to science to my knowledge, for instance in visiting thermal vents) so I doubt they’d be allowed to just rent it out for sightseeing. Rather, I was more trying to point out using it as an example that building a reasonably safe and reliable sub for this kind of depth is not only possible, it has been for quite some time now. It reflects extremely poorly on the design and operators of the Titan that it could not.
The Guardian has some more choice quotes from this guy:
OceanGate CEO dismissed warnings about sub’s safety as ‘baseless cries’ - report
Stockton Rush, the CEO of OceanGate who was killed on board the Titan submersible, repeatedly dismissed warnings over the safety of the sub, emails between Rush and a deep sea exploration expert show.
In messages seen by the BBC, Rush described criticism of Titan’s safety measures as “baseless lies” from “industry players” who were trying to stop “new entrants from entering their small existing market”.
The emails between Rush and Rob McCallum, a leading deep sea exploration specialist, ended after OceanGate’s lawyers threatened legal action, McCallum said. In one email in March 2018, McCallum writes to Rush:
“I think you are potentially placing yourself and your clients in a dangerous dynamic. In your race to [the] Titanic you are mirroring that famous catch cry: ‘She is unsinkable’.”
He told the BBC that he repeatedly urged OceanGate to seek certification for the Titan before using it for commercial tours. The vessel was not registered with international agencies, nor was it classified by a maritime industry group that sets basic engineering standards.
McCallum was among more than three dozen industry leaders in the submersible vessel field who signed a 2018 letter warning Rush of possible “catastrophic” problems with Titan’s development.
In one email, McCallum writes to Rush:
“I implore you to take every care in your testing and sea trials and to be very, very conservative.”
But Rush expressed frustration, writing in one email:
“We have heard the baseless cries of ‘you are going to kill someone’ way too often. I take this as a serious personal insult.”
The OceanGate co-founder defended his company’s '“engineering focused, innovative approach” which “flies in the face of the submersible orthodoxy”, and said he himself was “well qualified to understand the risks and issues associated with subsea exploration in a new vehicle”.
I know it’s petty, but I find it extremely frustrating that he likely didn’t have enough time to realize just how wrong he was about everything before he died. He went to his death saying “No, it’s the children who are wrong.”
@vaguerant Yeah if you believe in an afterlife, another plane of existence…that’s when he’d put 2+2=4. Most likely he didn’t even have time register it
Well, he’s not wrong. He will certainly be remembered for the rules he broke, but not at all for the reason he thought he would. This will go down as a classic example of why qualifications matter, and that you do not know better than industry experts.
These people never seem to realize that they don’t just make these rules for no reason. And if you are going to break rules like this when innovating, at least understand why those rules exist.
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I wonder if any of the footage from inside the sub survived.
Yikes. I appreciate that some people love to do extreme things, but this one just seems like a bad idea. You couldn’t pay me to ever get into a sub like this.
If it was just him and his buddies getting on this sub and doing dangerous voyages then I see no problem.
But to ignore industry experts and invite paying clients onto your ultra-dangerous submarine, well that’s not a good look.
The simple fact that there was no possible egress without outside assistance should have been reason enough to scrap the design. With constant safety issues on what seems like every single one of their dives, I’m actually amazed that the Titan didn’t kill someone sooner.
Honestly, it’s almost certainly possible to make a deep sea tour sub like this that’s reasonably safe, if even more expensive (though given the only clientele for this kind of tourism is so incredibly rich I’m not sure this really matters). Consider that subs capable of operating at this depth have existed for a long time, for example, the Alvin , which was built in the 60s, can go to the wreck of the Titanic and even deeper, and yet still gets used today.
Yeah, James Cameron has been to the Titanic and back 33 times. And to the Mariana Trench, and who knows where else. It’s not impossible to do it safely, but that requires spending money on the correct materials, listening to your engineers, cross checking with third party engineers, and not rushing things. Carbon fiber is a stupid material for a sub hull, using different materials with different expansion and contraction rates for your pressure vessel is a stupid decision, not having a way for the passengers to self-rescue is stupid, using a wireless controller without (multiple) hardwired backups is stupid.
The entire thing reeks of a CEO who doesn’t want to take the time to do things properly in fear of investors losing interest. And I get that fear, I work for a small company as well (not building submarines) and you do have to move quickly with a lot of things. But you DON’T rush things when human safety is a factor.
That sub should have been remotely operated dozens of times and gone through multiple iterations before they ever let a living creature inside it. It should have been x-rayed between every dive to find microfractures in the brittle carbon fiber hull. Multiple prototypes should have been built and extensively tested to find flaws in the design or assembly process.
Wow apparently that Alvin was built by General Mills! (Electronic division.) Like the cereal company. Also it say:
That’s a good idea. I wonder if they just are not allowed to go on the alvin no matter how much they pay, and thats why they chose other option?
I wasn’t suggesting that they actually use that sub for their tour, the Alvin does have actual work it does (has made some pretty important contributions to science to my knowledge, for instance in visiting thermal vents) so I doubt they’d be allowed to just rent it out for sightseeing. Rather, I was more trying to point out using it as an example that building a reasonably safe and reliable sub for this kind of depth is not only possible, it has been for quite some time now. It reflects extremely poorly on the design and operators of the Titan that it could not.
Man wasn’t wrong. He will be remembered for it.
He’ll be remembered for breaking rules yes, but he won’t be remembered “as an innovator”.
He innovated a new way to kill customers.
Monkey paw logic at work.
Yeah, I’ll always remember “what’s his name dumbass sub guy” from now on.
Hubris, thy name is Rush
Uh could we use his full name? Rush the band was amazing…i don’t want confusion.
The Guardian has some more choice quotes from this guy:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2023/jun/23/titanic-sub-live-updates-us-navy-catastrophic-implosion-submarine-victims-titan-missing-submersible-latest-news
I know it’s petty, but I find it extremely frustrating that he likely didn’t have enough time to realize just how wrong he was about everything before he died. He went to his death saying “No, it’s the children who are wrong.”
@vaguerant Yeah if you believe in an afterlife, another plane of existence…that’s when he’d put 2+2=4. Most likely he didn’t even have time register it
@floofloof
I read that it looks like they may have been making their ascent before imploding, which means he may have know about how bad it was before he died.
https://www.npr.org/2023/06/23/1183975136/james-cameron-titanic-titan-sub
And then he found out why you don’t do that.
The hard way.
Wanted to be remembered as an innovator but will be remembered as an idiot.
Well, he’s not wrong. He will certainly be remembered for the rules he broke, but not at all for the reason he thought he would. This will go down as a classic example of why qualifications matter, and that you do not know better than industry experts.
“Hey, remember that submersible guy?”
“The one who got a bunch of people killed?”
“Yeah”
“No”
Well, dont worry, we will remember you. As an idiot.
The “move fast and break stuff” techbro ethic might not work so well with pressure vessels.
That type of attitude might be acceptable if it’s just your life on the line. But when you’re putting others lives on the line it’s horrific.
I never even bothered to remember his name.
These people never seem to realize that they don’t just make these rules for no reason. And if you are going to break rules like this when innovating, at least understand why those rules exist.