I have to say I’m not sure what they were hoping for, the discourse hasn’t felt overly mean by internet standards, but maybe that’s just my bubble. I’m sorry they died, but now that we know all the details it’s a bit like the guy that decided to hike up a lava field last year.
Also,
People’s fascination with the wealthy is fuelled by both curiosity and envy. And when rich people find themselves in trouble, it makes the rest of us feel better, Pamela Rutledge, director of the California-based Media Psychology Research Center, wrote in a piece about social media and the submersible for Psychology Today.
I feel like “outrage” should be in there somewhere. It makes me mad that people can be that dumb with a quarter of a million dollars while I’m just glad to have a safe roof over my head, and other people (like the mentioned boat migrants) aren’t even that lucky.
To me, they were people doing a super risky thing who died doing that risky thing. It’s a shame, but they made the choice to do that super risky thing.
What annoys me is the “privatize the wins, socialize the losses” aspect. I’m pretty sure these guys weren’t paying any taxes to Canada, but it’s Canada paying for the search and rescue operations. Making it extra galling is that the owner cut corners, presumably to increase profits. Sure, high profits hopefully means high taxes somewhere, but even at $250k/pop the profits would never be enough to pay for the Search and Rescue efforts that that corner cutting was going to eventually require.
I’ve seen some pretty callous attitudes towards the victims based on the fact that they were wealthy. And while there is plenty to be said about the ethics of hoarding money, I would almost never advocate for the death of another regardless of their crimes.
Stockton Rush was the truly reckless person here, and there is certainly humor to be found in his disregard for safety bringing about his own demise. Especially considering how much it seems to echo the story of the mass grave he built the Titan to visit. He swindled people into taking a ride on his budget deep-submergence vehicle. If anyone “got what they were asking for”, it was him.
Who I feel bad for are the friends and families of the victims. Rush and everyone else never even had time to process the fact that something was wrong before getting compressed down to the size of a tin can. But their spouses, children, friends, and relatives didn’t make the decision to take this risk. They woke up Monday to learn that their loved one went missing, and learned of their death on Thursday. No amount of money in your bank account really changes the math here, this is a truly horrifying ongoing experience for them just as much as it would be for you or me.
None of this will stop me from enjoying some good old fashioned gallows humor. There has certainly been a lot of amusement to be had dissecting Rush’s recklessness, his scary comments about regulations impeding innovation, and the questionable design of the Titan. But I choose to leave his victims out of it.
The thing is Rush was by all accounts a smart guy and not a swindler. Obviously, he really believed his thing was safe, what with being on it and all. I suspect this will be a case of an elite expert that thinks knowing his field in and out means he knows everything. I usually call it “Ben Carson syndrome”, haha.
But the thing is, he wasn’t a smart guy and was a swindler.
His background is in aeronautics, not marine engineering, so he was trying to apply knowledge meant for 0-1 atm of pressure to engineering a vessel to withstand 400 atm of pressure.
Just like everyone in the submersible world is coming out of the woodwork saying they all knew about his designs and told him not to do it, he was also known in the oceanography world (my field of research) - he (or others from oceangate) would show up at the conferences and be on the tech expo floors, especially in his early years, and try to convince us all that we should be using his subs to do our research. He wasn’t pitching for us to do anything new or innovative with our research, just that he could attach our tech to his sub and go out there with it instead of towing it behind a boat, taking measurements remotely, using an ROV/AUV, etc. A) we already have tried and true methods of collecting or data, and in order to publish our data it needs to be reproducible in order to be peer reviewed, so why would we collect data with a method that would be best impossible for anyone else to do, B) why would we go through that risk of an untested method when the method isn’t our research, C) there wasn’t a chance that our research grants would cover the cost, D) there wasn’t a chance that our research institutions would insure us or our research for it. He really wanted to be part of the research world to show this was an important part of research and prove the legitimacy of his creation, but he was barking up the wrong tree. He was coming to those of us that were doing acoustic data collection of the seafloor and saying we could be in the sub while the data is being recorded - but there’s no benefit to that, or teams that take measurements that are taken regularly over a period of time which would require multiple deployments instead of planning a sensor that is checked remotely regularly. He really tried selling it hard though. Maybe if he went to the animal behaviorists that always say “I wish I could just see when they do ______” whatever behavior it is that has never been seen by humans because it’s underwater and too far to dive - but chances are the appearance of a strange bubbling metal vessel with a light will scare it off… This is what ROVs are for.
Anyway, since he couldn’t get anywhere with the research angle, he started hawking it to his rich acquaintances and friends of friends. He still claimed to them that the overall goal was to have it be used as a research tool, so I don’t know if the Titanic dives were a means to an end or a detour that would continue, but either way, he knew he had these acquaintances that had the will and the means to pay massive amounts of money for limited access adventure experiences and exploited the Titanic.
I feel bad for the kid, who had the opportunity to be better than his origins, but you fundamentally cannot be anything other than evil while being that rich. As such, there’s one death to mourn and like four to actively celebrate.
I think a lot of it comes from us being sold the idea that the ultra-rich got where they are through hard work and intelligence. “The American Dream,” etc… When things like this happen, it proves that the ruling class are just as stupid as any Joe-blow off the street.
Generational wealth is finally (maybe) being discussed as a big issue and one which skews figures for one trying to break down our economic disparity problems. I hope it ends up helping because something has to give.
Yeah, I don’t particularly envy the ultra-rich. I love the idea of having enough money to not worry about money, but I want that for everyone, not just myself.
Agreed. I don’t envy them at all, in fact I think there’s evidence both anecdotal and scientific that being ultra-rich fucks you up quite seriously, and/or you need to be seriously fucked up to get that way. I actually pity them, to some degree. My pity is, however, eclipsed by my anger at a world that allows them to exist, in a cycle they perpetuate.
Frankly, I suspect pamela rutledge’s out-of-touch words suggest she is beholden to some of their interests. I see much less envy than I see anger at the ultra-rich.
There is a certain amount of schadenfreude when you see the ultra rich suffering some self imposed misfortune but when I see the 1% I really just think that they need to go against a wall while the collective takes their I’ll gotten gains to the tax man to socially distribute to those who need with housing then mental health and healthcare followed by education and jobs in infrastructure to bring our whole society into an environmentally friendly sustainable future.
Then again that is just a run on sentence of dreams.
I love the idea of having enough money to not worry about money
Does the worry ever really go away? There is always someone trying to take your money. While I don’t know the life of the ultra-rich, I suspect that they have even more people trying to take their money than us average Joes. Perhaps with their resources they can hire a money manager to alleviate some of the worry, but then they have to worry if said manager will disappear into the night with their money; something that becomes increasingly attractive and worth the risk when the sums become large.
buhhh I’m sorry I tried to make this short, but it’s really complicated.
The worry can go away because it’s not tied inherently to money but rather an individual’s needs not being met. While that’s a problem every individual will struggle with to varying degrees, I see the ultra-rich lifestyle as one of the most difficult to overcome in this sense and in this case, “Richie” here is worried about the security of their perceived source of power, in simplest terms.
It’s not even the myriad of comforts one can afford that will continue to draw you away from the discomforts one must overcome for self-empowerment like “Richie’s” trust issues and lack of knowledge/understanding of the systems they’re working with. It’s the isolation from new ideas.
If you are not exposing yourself to new things, you will be looping through your habits and rituals day after day because it’s comfortable. You will heavily delay the knowledge on why that’s bad and continue to loop. Even worse would be to come to this awareness by luck - and faaar too early, as you’d have no knowledge on what to do about it.
That’s depression. It’s terrible. No way for anyone to live. You’re left blind feeling the walls until you find your way, and unfortunately that’s an option with a perceived easier alternative… What do you even do…? Continue to wait for the universe to maybe drop an answer on your lap?
Yes. Not ideal and we can make alternatives collectively, but until then… yes.
How many other factors are working against Richie’s resolution? Was their parents inadequately developed emotionally? In that case, did they misinterpret reality and then push their beliefs onto Richie? Does Richie have peers they can trust? Confidants to consult? Do they even know how to read? how to research? How to even utilize and learn from said research as to avoid the bias they may have picked up from their peers?
To reiterate, people get stuck in the logic of our society and money, but it’s not a money issue as a poor individual will suffer the same situation in a different package - it’s a perceived resource issue. Exploring the semantics of why that is would probably be a great starting point to actually understanding the issue, but I don’t think I can do any of these ideas the justice they deserve. I implore you to continue exploring the idea. It’s great to empower yourself and maybe help others along the way. :)
As an alternative answer I’ll iterate from my own personal experience - the worry of money can go away. Your world is limited only by your imagination. I think some big-shot nerd said that once.
Also I wanted to add, I have friends and many acquaintances who are million/multi-millionaires whom I’ve observed over the course of my life. The culture on that level is discomforting. Poorly-educated homes compared to educational access, excessive partying (drugs or purely social), and a really weird desire to save money? Like a good amount of who I’ve been exposed to, they LOVE shopping at thrift stores and getting deals, which ironically ties-back to the article here.
I hope he went into it knowing the risks as well, at least. Like I said, I’m sorry they died, even if it was kinda their fault a bit. (The active lava field guy was last years Darwin Award winner for self-selecting out, if nobody gets the reference)
The father’s sister (the 19 y/o’s aunt) said that he was terrified to go and was only doing it because his dad was obsessed with the Titanic and it was near father’s day. I feel bad for him.
Kids die all the time (like the migrant kids) and at least this kid got to live a 1%er lifestyle for 19 years. Not much of a consolation prize for an early death, though…
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To me, they were people doing a super risky thing who died doing that risky thing. It’s a shame, but they made the choice to do that super risky thing.
What annoys me is the “privatize the wins, socialize the losses” aspect. I’m pretty sure these guys weren’t paying any taxes to Canada, but it’s Canada paying for the search and rescue operations. Making it extra galling is that the owner cut corners, presumably to increase profits. Sure, high profits hopefully means high taxes somewhere, but even at $250k/pop the profits would never be enough to pay for the Search and Rescue efforts that that corner cutting was going to eventually require.
I’ve seen some pretty callous attitudes towards the victims based on the fact that they were wealthy. And while there is plenty to be said about the ethics of hoarding money, I would almost never advocate for the death of another regardless of their crimes.
Stockton Rush was the truly reckless person here, and there is certainly humor to be found in his disregard for safety bringing about his own demise. Especially considering how much it seems to echo the story of the mass grave he built the Titan to visit. He swindled people into taking a ride on his budget deep-submergence vehicle. If anyone “got what they were asking for”, it was him.
Who I feel bad for are the friends and families of the victims. Rush and everyone else never even had time to process the fact that something was wrong before getting compressed down to the size of a tin can. But their spouses, children, friends, and relatives didn’t make the decision to take this risk. They woke up Monday to learn that their loved one went missing, and learned of their death on Thursday. No amount of money in your bank account really changes the math here, this is a truly horrifying ongoing experience for them just as much as it would be for you or me.
None of this will stop me from enjoying some good old fashioned gallows humor. There has certainly been a lot of amusement to be had dissecting Rush’s recklessness, his scary comments about regulations impeding innovation, and the questionable design of the Titan. But I choose to leave his victims out of it.
You have a good heart.
The thing is Rush was by all accounts a smart guy and not a swindler. Obviously, he really believed his thing was safe, what with being on it and all. I suspect this will be a case of an elite expert that thinks knowing his field in and out means he knows everything. I usually call it “Ben Carson syndrome”, haha.
But the thing is, he wasn’t a smart guy and was a swindler.
His background is in aeronautics, not marine engineering, so he was trying to apply knowledge meant for 0-1 atm of pressure to engineering a vessel to withstand 400 atm of pressure.
Just like everyone in the submersible world is coming out of the woodwork saying they all knew about his designs and told him not to do it, he was also known in the oceanography world (my field of research) - he (or others from oceangate) would show up at the conferences and be on the tech expo floors, especially in his early years, and try to convince us all that we should be using his subs to do our research. He wasn’t pitching for us to do anything new or innovative with our research, just that he could attach our tech to his sub and go out there with it instead of towing it behind a boat, taking measurements remotely, using an ROV/AUV, etc. A) we already have tried and true methods of collecting or data, and in order to publish our data it needs to be reproducible in order to be peer reviewed, so why would we collect data with a method that would be best impossible for anyone else to do, B) why would we go through that risk of an untested method when the method isn’t our research, C) there wasn’t a chance that our research grants would cover the cost, D) there wasn’t a chance that our research institutions would insure us or our research for it. He really wanted to be part of the research world to show this was an important part of research and prove the legitimacy of his creation, but he was barking up the wrong tree. He was coming to those of us that were doing acoustic data collection of the seafloor and saying we could be in the sub while the data is being recorded - but there’s no benefit to that, or teams that take measurements that are taken regularly over a period of time which would require multiple deployments instead of planning a sensor that is checked remotely regularly. He really tried selling it hard though. Maybe if he went to the animal behaviorists that always say “I wish I could just see when they do ______” whatever behavior it is that has never been seen by humans because it’s underwater and too far to dive - but chances are the appearance of a strange bubbling metal vessel with a light will scare it off… This is what ROVs are for.
Anyway, since he couldn’t get anywhere with the research angle, he started hawking it to his rich acquaintances and friends of friends. He still claimed to them that the overall goal was to have it be used as a research tool, so I don’t know if the Titanic dives were a means to an end or a detour that would continue, but either way, he knew he had these acquaintances that had the will and the means to pay massive amounts of money for limited access adventure experiences and exploited the Titanic.
Obviously spoken by an independently wealthy person.
I feel bad for the kid, who had the opportunity to be better than his origins, but you fundamentally cannot be anything other than evil while being that rich. As such, there’s one death to mourn and like four to actively celebrate.
I think a lot of it comes from us being sold the idea that the ultra-rich got where they are through hard work and intelligence. “The American Dream,” etc… When things like this happen, it proves that the ruling class are just as stupid as any Joe-blow off the street.
“A small loan of a million dollars…”
Generational wealth is finally (maybe) being discussed as a big issue and one which skews figures for one trying to break down our economic disparity problems. I hope it ends up helping because something has to give.
Which turned out in fact to be a gift of $413 million dollars obtained through tax dodges.
Yeah, I don’t particularly envy the ultra-rich. I love the idea of having enough money to not worry about money, but I want that for everyone, not just myself.
Agreed. I don’t envy them at all, in fact I think there’s evidence both anecdotal and scientific that being ultra-rich fucks you up quite seriously, and/or you need to be seriously fucked up to get that way. I actually pity them, to some degree. My pity is, however, eclipsed by my anger at a world that allows them to exist, in a cycle they perpetuate.
Frankly, I suspect pamela rutledge’s out-of-touch words suggest she is beholden to some of their interests. I see much less envy than I see anger at the ultra-rich.
There is a certain amount of schadenfreude when you see the ultra rich suffering some self imposed misfortune but when I see the 1% I really just think that they need to go against a wall while the collective takes their I’ll gotten gains to the tax man to socially distribute to those who need with housing then mental health and healthcare followed by education and jobs in infrastructure to bring our whole society into an environmentally friendly sustainable future.
Then again that is just a run on sentence of dreams.
Does the worry ever really go away? There is always someone trying to take your money. While I don’t know the life of the ultra-rich, I suspect that they have even more people trying to take their money than us average Joes. Perhaps with their resources they can hire a money manager to alleviate some of the worry, but then they have to worry if said manager will disappear into the night with their money; something that becomes increasingly attractive and worth the risk when the sums become large.
buhhh I’m sorry I tried to make this short, but it’s really complicated.
The worry can go away because it’s not tied inherently to money but rather an individual’s needs not being met. While that’s a problem every individual will struggle with to varying degrees, I see the ultra-rich lifestyle as one of the most difficult to overcome in this sense and in this case, “Richie” here is worried about the security of their perceived source of power, in simplest terms.
It’s not even the myriad of comforts one can afford that will continue to draw you away from the discomforts one must overcome for self-empowerment like “Richie’s” trust issues and lack of knowledge/understanding of the systems they’re working with. It’s the isolation from new ideas.
If you are not exposing yourself to new things, you will be looping through your habits and rituals day after day because it’s comfortable. You will heavily delay the knowledge on why that’s bad and continue to loop. Even worse would be to come to this awareness by luck - and faaar too early, as you’d have no knowledge on what to do about it.
That’s depression. It’s terrible. No way for anyone to live. You’re left blind feeling the walls until you find your way, and unfortunately that’s an option with a perceived easier alternative… What do you even do…? Continue to wait for the universe to maybe drop an answer on your lap?
Yes. Not ideal and we can make alternatives collectively, but until then… yes.
How many other factors are working against Richie’s resolution? Was their parents inadequately developed emotionally? In that case, did they misinterpret reality and then push their beliefs onto Richie? Does Richie have peers they can trust? Confidants to consult? Do they even know how to read? how to research? How to even utilize and learn from said research as to avoid the bias they may have picked up from their peers?
To reiterate, people get stuck in the logic of our society and money, but it’s not a money issue as a poor individual will suffer the same situation in a different package - it’s a perceived resource issue. Exploring the semantics of why that is would probably be a great starting point to actually understanding the issue, but I don’t think I can do any of these ideas the justice they deserve. I implore you to continue exploring the idea. It’s great to empower yourself and maybe help others along the way. :)
As an alternative answer I’ll iterate from my own personal experience - the worry of money can go away. Your world is limited only by your imagination. I think some big-shot nerd said that once.
Also I wanted to add, I have friends and many acquaintances who are million/multi-millionaires whom I’ve observed over the course of my life. The culture on that level is discomforting. Poorly-educated homes compared to educational access, excessive partying (drugs or purely social), and a really weird desire to save money? Like a good amount of who I’ve been exposed to, they LOVE shopping at thrift stores and getting deals, which ironically ties-back to the article here.
Weird!
The main unfortunate thing I find about all this meanness is that it garners me downvotes when I point out the 19-year-old who got dragged into this.
I hope he went into it knowing the risks as well, at least. Like I said, I’m sorry they died, even if it was kinda their fault a bit. (The active lava field guy was last years Darwin Award winner for self-selecting out, if nobody gets the reference)
The father’s sister (the 19 y/o’s aunt) said that he was terrified to go and was only doing it because his dad was obsessed with the Titanic and it was near father’s day. I feel bad for him.
Kids die all the time (like the migrant kids) and at least this kid got to live a 1%er lifestyle for 19 years. Not much of a consolation prize for an early death, though…