Along with the massive recent manufacturing investments in electric vehicle (EV) technology and talks of a greener, decarbonized future, there are some not-so-green problems.
In its latest New Energy Finance report, Bloomberg News predicts there will be some 730 million EVs on the road by 2040. The year before, Bloomberg predicted half of all U.S. vehicle sales would be battery electric by 2030.
In Canada, too, there’s talk of a big economic boost with the transition to EVs — including 250,000 jobs and $48 billion a year added to the nation’s economy through the creation of a domestic supply chain.
Governments have already invested tens of billions into two EV battery manufacturing plants in southwestern Ontario. However, they come with the environmental dilemma of what to do with the millions of EV batteries when they reach the end of their life.
“The rules are non-existent,” said Mark Winfield, a professor at York University in Toronto and co-chair of the school’s Sustainable Energy Initiative. "There is nothing as we talk to agencies on both sides of the border, the federal, provincial, state levels.
“In the case of Ontario, the answer was actually that we have no intention of doing anything about this.”
This is something you can google. It’s been talked about to death. Even in the worst energy mix countries EVs still beats gas on emissions during the cars lifetime
Because right now recycling of plastics in end-of-life vehicles (ELVs) is low because of mixed composites and few markets …
About 1.6 million vehicles are retired annually in Canada, and each of these ELVs contain about 175 kg of various plastic resins. Recycling rates for the plastics in ELVs tend to be low since there are very few end markets for these materials. Plastics from ELVs are often contaminated with other plastics and metal components, and there are not currently technologies capable of recycling all of the different plastic and multi-resin parts found in vehicles. Source
EV plastic and body recycling will be even less because of the need for composite construction in unibody design to keep the weight down, to compensate for the battery weight. Right now EVs are 1000+ lbs heavier than traditional ICE vehicles.
Oil is oil. It’s either dirty or clean. Recycling it removes the dirt, and while that in no way makes it functional as a lubricant for newer engines it can be used for other manufacturing processes or be used in different products, ie: asphalt.
EVs are not a climate solution. You still get most of the negatives of ICE cars. However, the development of the technology is still needed. We need better battery tech. We need to figure out how to recharge batteries and how to manage their wastes.
When it comes to transport, the greenest solutions are centralized, as they substantially reduce demand of materials.the problem with centralized transportation, is that until you get it to the point where you have 24/7 coverage with small wait windows, people will still prefer a car. Why wait for a bus, when I can turn the key and go? Bonus, I don’t have to deal with people or transfer.
The negatives of ICE cars and EVs are not comparable. EVs are an important solution against climate change, ICE pollutes much more. One lithium battery is not the same as literally 10 years of directly burning oil, the rest of the car takes the same ressources to build in both cases.
Daily reminder that “batteries are the devil and EVs pollute just as much as ICE” is pure oil industry propaganda.
You’re missing my point. EVs do provide some value in their immediate offset of Carbon. No question. My point is that on a broader scale, unless we REDUCE OUR DEMAND for individual transportation, and have systems in place that can replace that need, any solution we offer is going to be hugely environmentally detrimental. if 100 people need 100 cars to live, that’s still 100 cars we have to produce. If 100 people can get by on 3 busses and 15 EV scooters, we are better off.
No, I’m correcting you on things that you are presenting as ground truths. I’m not missing anything, my comment only pertains to your two first sentences which are completely false.
You can make your point without lying and being a mouthpiece for the oil industry.
How are they false? You still need metal, rubber, and plastics to make an EV, in similar quantities to create cars, because you are creating cars. There is an environmental impact associated with this.
As I said, you certainly get the C offset due to not burning fuel, and definitely helps, but it’s not a be all end all solution.
As I continue to say, we need a holistic approach to the climate crisis, without oil.
I don’t know why you think I’m a o&g mouthpiece, when I would happily watch those companies and Petro states beg for alms down by the river.
EVs aren’t perfect but they certainly are much better imo.
A car free society is 100% the end goal but we need to transition through EVs, we simply can’t cling on to gas any longer. It’s going to take too long to switch for us to just ignore the impact gas has on our environment while we do so.
Both types of vehicle have their manufacturing environmental costs but there is a vast difference between the cost of a lithium battery and literally taking oil and burning it. Presenting both as having the same environmental cost is precisely the type of misinformation the oil companies are peddling.
There is an environmental cost to nearly everything — but the cost for virtually everything related to EVs is significantly less than those of ICE vehicles, especially in a country like Canada where over 80% of our electricity is from hydroelectric sources, and over 90% of it is from non-carbon-emitting sources.
Yes, the batteries (today) need lithium. That’s not likely to be true moving into the future — China is already releasing an 2024 model based on a sulphur battery. However, what many people (and this article) conveniently ignore is that ICE vehicles use rare-earth metals as well. For example, very ICE vehicle uses palladium (one of the rarest metals on earth) for the catalytic converter — a rare earth metal not required in EV production. And Russia produces 40% of the global supply of palladium.
And oil refining uses cobalt as part of the de-sulphuring process. A lot of cobalt. Over its lifetime the average ICE vehicle will use more cobalt than any EV being manufactured today.
EV batteries are recyclable — up to 95% recyclable. But even before disposal is needed, used EV batteries can be repurposed — Nissan in Japan already resells Leaf batteries with >80% capacity as home backup and camping power packs, and elsewhere in the world used EV batteries are finding a new life as solar power generation storage. Sourcing lithium from used EV batteries cells is vastly more economical than mining for new lithium, so we’ll likely hit a steady-state where only minimal mining is required for new EVs. EV battery recycling is somewhat nascent right now as the oldest EVs are barely 12 years old, and many of those are still on the road.
The worries about the environmental cost of EVs is vastly overstated — especially when you set them side-by-side with ICE vehicles. Anyone who unabashedly drives an ICE vehicle but then complains about how polluting EVs are is being completely disingenuous.
It’s not an either-or situation; we’ll always need a mix of transit capabilities.
Besides which, transit has many of the same issues, and benefits from the same technologies. We need to remove diesel and gas busses, trams, and trains from the roads as well, often using much the same technologies the anti-EV crowd puts down passenger EVs for.
Everything I stated for why EVs are better for the environment goes for electric driven public transit too.
Actually, it very much is an either or situation. Either we drastically reduce our consumption, and start using public transportation, or we pollute ourselves to death trying to give every human a car.
You can’t have public transportation that takes everyone everywhere they need (or want) to be. Ever order food delivery? You can’t do that by bus or train. Would you expect the Presidential motorcade to switch to getting on a subway? Do you expect every plumber, electrician, landscaper, and handyman who needs a van or truck to haul their equipment from home to home to do repairs just bring 10 guys on the bus with them?
We’ll still need passenger vehicles, full stop. Should we design cities and transit so that we need less of them? Sure — but it’s impossible to replace all of them, as public-option transport just can’t do everything we use passenger vehicles for today. Public transit is only about moving people, but sometimes those people need to drag equipment around with them, or need additional security, or have need to go somewhere where dedicated transit options aren’t financially viable — and for those cases, we still need non-polluting passenger vehicles.
Well, non-polluting passenger vehicles are happening, and here in Canada by 2035 all passenger vehicles sold will (at a minimum) need to be PHEVs that can travel up to 80km on a single battery charge.
Unless of course idiot voters bring in a Conservative government, and they remove the certainty the Liberal government has given automakers around EV sales in Canada.
I don’t have high hopes for the future. We are going to emit a fuck ton of CO2 to extract all the rare earth minerals, in order to replace the insane fleet of passenger vehicles in the world, and in doing so, lock in our fate.
Other than a socialist wave that destroys our culture of consumerism and capitalism, I don’t see us pulling out of the nose dive.
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Was this written by saudi arabia?
This is something you can google. It’s been talked about to death. Even in the worst energy mix countries EVs still beats gas on emissions during the cars lifetime
On emissions, yes.
On recyclability, no.
We can cheaply recycle gasoline now?
We can recycle oil (and have since the 70’s). We also recycle vehicles with full frames (unibodies are more difficult) and engines.
EVs are not recyclable (yet, anyway) and are written off with far less damage (essentially unrepairable at low-speed impact accidents).
Do you think that lithium batteries aren’t recyclable? If so, I have some news for you…
EV = electric vehicles. I am referencing the whole vehicle, not just the battery.
Then why would you assume the whole vehicle can’t be recycled? They’re made out of metal and plastic like ICEVs
Because right now recycling of plastics in end-of-life vehicles (ELVs) is low because of mixed composites and few markets …
EV plastic and body recycling will be even less because of the need for composite construction in unibody design to keep the weight down, to compensate for the battery weight. Right now EVs are 1000+ lbs heavier than traditional ICE vehicles.
Doesn’t recycling oil require that you still have the oil in oil form?
Oil is oil. It’s either dirty or clean. Recycling it removes the dirt, and while that in no way makes it functional as a lubricant for newer engines it can be used for other manufacturing processes or be used in different products, ie: asphalt.
EVs are not a climate solution. You still get most of the negatives of ICE cars. However, the development of the technology is still needed. We need better battery tech. We need to figure out how to recharge batteries and how to manage their wastes.
When it comes to transport, the greenest solutions are centralized, as they substantially reduce demand of materials.the problem with centralized transportation, is that until you get it to the point where you have 24/7 coverage with small wait windows, people will still prefer a car. Why wait for a bus, when I can turn the key and go? Bonus, I don’t have to deal with people or transfer.
The negatives of ICE cars and EVs are not comparable. EVs are an important solution against climate change, ICE pollutes much more. One lithium battery is not the same as literally 10 years of directly burning oil, the rest of the car takes the same ressources to build in both cases.
Daily reminder that “batteries are the devil and EVs pollute just as much as ICE” is pure oil industry propaganda.
You’re missing my point. EVs do provide some value in their immediate offset of Carbon. No question. My point is that on a broader scale, unless we REDUCE OUR DEMAND for individual transportation, and have systems in place that can replace that need, any solution we offer is going to be hugely environmentally detrimental. if 100 people need 100 cars to live, that’s still 100 cars we have to produce. If 100 people can get by on 3 busses and 15 EV scooters, we are better off.
No, I’m correcting you on things that you are presenting as ground truths. I’m not missing anything, my comment only pertains to your two first sentences which are completely false.
You can make your point without lying and being a mouthpiece for the oil industry.
More vitriol please.
How are they false? You still need metal, rubber, and plastics to make an EV, in similar quantities to create cars, because you are creating cars. There is an environmental impact associated with this.
As I said, you certainly get the C offset due to not burning fuel, and definitely helps, but it’s not a be all end all solution.
As I continue to say, we need a holistic approach to the climate crisis, without oil.
I don’t know why you think I’m a o&g mouthpiece, when I would happily watch those companies and Petro states beg for alms down by the river.
EVs aren’t perfect but they certainly are much better imo.
A car free society is 100% the end goal but we need to transition through EVs, we simply can’t cling on to gas any longer. It’s going to take too long to switch for us to just ignore the impact gas has on our environment while we do so.
Both types of vehicle have their manufacturing environmental costs but there is a vast difference between the cost of a lithium battery and literally taking oil and burning it. Presenting both as having the same environmental cost is precisely the type of misinformation the oil companies are peddling.
There is an environmental cost to nearly everything — but the cost for virtually everything related to EVs is significantly less than those of ICE vehicles, especially in a country like Canada where over 80% of our electricity is from hydroelectric sources, and over 90% of it is from non-carbon-emitting sources.
Yes, the batteries (today) need lithium. That’s not likely to be true moving into the future — China is already releasing an 2024 model based on a sulphur battery. However, what many people (and this article) conveniently ignore is that ICE vehicles use rare-earth metals as well. For example, very ICE vehicle uses palladium (one of the rarest metals on earth) for the catalytic converter — a rare earth metal not required in EV production. And Russia produces 40% of the global supply of palladium.
And oil refining uses cobalt as part of the de-sulphuring process. A lot of cobalt. Over its lifetime the average ICE vehicle will use more cobalt than any EV being manufactured today.
EV batteries are recyclable — up to 95% recyclable. But even before disposal is needed, used EV batteries can be repurposed — Nissan in Japan already resells Leaf batteries with >80% capacity as home backup and camping power packs, and elsewhere in the world used EV batteries are finding a new life as solar power generation storage. Sourcing lithium from used EV batteries cells is vastly more economical than mining for new lithium, so we’ll likely hit a steady-state where only minimal mining is required for new EVs. EV battery recycling is somewhat nascent right now as the oldest EVs are barely 12 years old, and many of those are still on the road.
The worries about the environmental cost of EVs is vastly overstated — especially when you set them side-by-side with ICE vehicles. Anyone who unabashedly drives an ICE vehicle but then complains about how polluting EVs are is being completely disingenuous.
Now do public transit
EVs really just look like greenwashing car centric design when compared to transit.
That’s why our society is fucked and we deserve to crumble. Instead of real solutions, they just focused to something else they can sell us…
It’s not an either-or situation; we’ll always need a mix of transit capabilities.
Besides which, transit has many of the same issues, and benefits from the same technologies. We need to remove diesel and gas busses, trams, and trains from the roads as well, often using much the same technologies the anti-EV crowd puts down passenger EVs for.
Everything I stated for why EVs are better for the environment goes for electric driven public transit too.
Actually, it very much is an either or situation. Either we drastically reduce our consumption, and start using public transportation, or we pollute ourselves to death trying to give every human a car.
You can’t have public transportation that takes everyone everywhere they need (or want) to be. Ever order food delivery? You can’t do that by bus or train. Would you expect the Presidential motorcade to switch to getting on a subway? Do you expect every plumber, electrician, landscaper, and handyman who needs a van or truck to haul their equipment from home to home to do repairs just bring 10 guys on the bus with them?
We’ll still need passenger vehicles, full stop. Should we design cities and transit so that we need less of them? Sure — but it’s impossible to replace all of them, as public-option transport just can’t do everything we use passenger vehicles for today. Public transit is only about moving people, but sometimes those people need to drag equipment around with them, or need additional security, or have need to go somewhere where dedicated transit options aren’t financially viable — and for those cases, we still need non-polluting passenger vehicles.
I predict neither will happen.
Well, non-polluting passenger vehicles are happening, and here in Canada by 2035 all passenger vehicles sold will (at a minimum) need to be PHEVs that can travel up to 80km on a single battery charge.
Unless of course idiot voters bring in a Conservative government, and they remove the certainty the Liberal government has given automakers around EV sales in Canada.
I don’t have high hopes for the future. We are going to emit a fuck ton of CO2 to extract all the rare earth minerals, in order to replace the insane fleet of passenger vehicles in the world, and in doing so, lock in our fate.
Other than a socialist wave that destroys our culture of consumerism and capitalism, I don’t see us pulling out of the nose dive.