Just some off the top of my head: Destiny, Deep Rock Galactic, Overwatch, and most recently Baldur’s Gate.
I received BG3 as a gift. I installed and loaded up the game and the first thing I was prompted to do is to create a character. There are like 12 different classes with 14 different abilities and 10 ability classes. The game does not explain any of this. I went to watch a tutorial online to try and wrap my head around all of this. The first tutorial just assumed you knew a bunch of stuff already. The second one I found was great but it was 1.5 hours long. There is no in-game tutorial I could find.
I just get very bored very quickly of analyzing character traits and I absolutely loathe inventory management (looking at you Borderlands). Often times my inventory fills up and then I end up just selling stuff that I have no idea what it does and later realizing it’s an incredibly valuable item/resource and now I have to find more.
So my question is this: Do you guys really spend hours of your day just researching on the internet how to play these games? Or do you just jump in and wing it? Or does each game just build on top of working knowledge of previous similar games?
E: General consensus seems to be all of the above. Good to know!
While I agree in principle, I think a game needs to make it clear when something isn’t window dressing. My buddy just couldn’t understand why positioning mattered. It never clicked for him because he figured RPG combat was just “swing a sword/shoot an arrow until the other guy dies”. We had to explain it to him. He also never thought to explore the UI for information as to why his movement was reduced or why he was disadvantaged, despite having icons next to his character with tooltips explaining what status effects were in play. While it may seem obvious that things are happening on screen and one could deduce that something meaningful is occuring, I think if I’m honest, I can’t blame my buddy for not understanding. I’ve fallen victim to it myself.
Sometimes we just don’t, on our own, interpret information as being meaningful. Consequently, we unduly discard it before making decisions. I think it’s important to be told in one form or the other when something matters. Whether that’s tutorialization or otherwise, I think it’s important. I think the more complicated the game, the easier it is for a player to fall in to a trap of discarding important information and subsequently becoming frustrated.
I think even something as simple as the game making its expectations clear from the start could go a long way. Something as simple as conveying to the user that they are expected to be attentive as they play.
This line strikes me as curious. Were you playing co-op together for his first time through? There are a lot of tutorials in the early game that explain so much of this stuff that you have to explicitly dismiss that they’re hard to miss…unless you’re in a discord call with some friends. And did you have to explain it to him, or was that just the first opportunity he had to raise the question, and you answered right away without him having time to figure it out himself? Did he ask you because he found the game difficult, or did you just tell him without him even asking because you observed that he wasn’t using his movement? The opening moments of the game actually require you to use your movement in turn based combat in order to continue, and you can observe which enemies can reach you or not as you approach your objective.
If your friend really had this hard of a time learning that without trying to see how to overcome the challenge by just doing anything else besides what didn’t work, it sounds like the type of person that Sony gets for their play tests that tells them they need to give an answer to a puzzle after looking at it for only a few seconds. I don’t know that you can onboard that person without frustrating everyone else, other than easy mode, which BG3 does have, and it tells you what kinds of expectations it has of you on that screen.
And did you have to explain it to him, or was that just the first opportunity he had to raise the question, and you answered right away without him having time to figure it out himself?
I suppose it was a bit of both.
It was three of us playing. I had finished the game already by the time we started. At first, we left it to him to explore the systems on his own. He got frustrated with that and would complain that we weren’t telling him what to do. So, we gradually explained more and more until we just started making decisions on our own. He was still frustrated. For example, late in to Act I, he would continue to throw his cleric in to the middle of battle as a melee fighter and die. Shortly after that, we all decided to stop playing.
There are a lot of tutorials in the early game that explain so much of this stuff that you have to explicitly dismiss that they’re hard to miss.
I must have missed them, then. I don’t recall any tutorials explaining anything beyond the cursory “you have to be in range to attack” or “potions heal HP” type of things. In fact, I loaded up my save and perused the tutorials again. The tutorial titled “Combat” simply tells you that there’s an initiative roll, combatants are listed at the top of the screen, and during a turn, a character may take an action, bonus action, and move. It’s entirely unhelpful. It may as well be a fighting game tutorial which says, “use punches and kicks to defeat your opponent.”
The opening moments of the game actually require you to use your movement in turn based combat in order to continue, and you can observe which enemies can reach you or not as you approach your objective.
I got through it by just running past most everyone. Sure, you can clearly see you have to move and that you have actions to take but nothing else is explained beyond that. I think that opening sequence is a great example of the lack of explanations in the game. My buddy thought he had to kill absolutely everyone on the nautiloid. We tried twice before telling him that you can continue moving past enemies. The thought never occured to him. I can’t blame him, either. All you’re told is that you have to connect the transponder in a certain amount of turns and narratively, there’s a sense of urgency. Nothing tells you that you don’t have to kill everything on the screen. That might seem painfully obvious but that’s my point: things obvious to one person are not obvious to another. That doesn’t make someone stupid, either. They just have different experiences and different expectations.
Nothing in the game explains that encounters are not immutable. Nothing in the game, as far as I can remember, explains the value of environmental elements and how to leverage them in combat. Nothing explains the tactical value of oil or water on the ground. Nothing explains the concept of crowd control at all. Nothing explains how to keep backline party members safe. This is all left for the player to discover.
I’ve been playing Larian games for a long time and I don’t remember a single one of BGIII, DOS2, or DOS ever explaining these concepts. If you walk in to these games without the understanding that you are expected to be observant and play around with the game mechanics, you will have a bad time. There are innumerable posts on the Web by people frustrated with the game because they don’t know what to do. My buddy is not an isolated example. People think differently.
My buddy tried fighting in melee combat as a low-level cleric. That might be a totally valid thing to do in something like Final Fantasy. My buddy thought he had to kill every enemy on the nautiloid. Maybe that’s just what you do in something like Diablo. Hell, I just finished a dungeon in Star Ocean which required exactly that. (It even told me upfront that would be the expectation of the dungeon) We are taught things which influence our decision making process. Without being told otherwise, it can be hard to understand exactly what is being asked of us as players as we try to reconcile those expections with our experiences.
My buddy didn’t need to be told what to do. What he needed to be told is what he can do and why he might want to do those things. In that, Larian failed him and, in my opinion as an adoring fan of their games, they have a habit of doing so.
I don’t think you actually let your friend fail and try to figure out how to not fail, and I don’t think it makes the game better when you’re so afraid of letting the player fail and apply what they’ve learned that there aren’t actually any decisions to make, like those Sony examples (God of War and Horizon’s latest entries, to be specific, were the ones that caught flak for this). That’s where the fun comes from.
I don’t recall any tutorials explaining anything beyond the cursory “you have to be in range to attack”
And that’s all you need to know in order to determine that positioning matters. They also explain opportunity attacks.
The tutorial titled “Combat” simply tells you that there’s an initiative roll, combatants are listed at the top of the screen, and during a turn, a character may take an action, bonus action, and move.
Which are a few of the things you said your friend was unaware of, despite the fact that several of these things are reiterated on most of the cards for your available actions during combat.
I’ve been playing Larian games for a long time and I don’t remember a single one of BGIII, DOS2, or DOS ever explaining these concepts.
Me neither, but even in my brief time with DOS1, I don’t recall needing to be told either. I just somehow found out that poison clouds can be set on fire, and very quickly.
This is not an insult to your friend, but just because he falls into the group that didn’t catch on immediately, I don’t think that’s indicative that the game is bad at teaching you how to play it. The Nautiloid highlights exactly where you have to go and how many turns you have to do it. If you let him fail once and try again, presumably, he’d realize that what he was doing wasn’t working and notice that giant UI element telling him how many turns he had to get to his objective.
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While I agree in principle, I think a game needs to make it clear when something isn’t window dressing. My buddy just couldn’t understand why positioning mattered. It never clicked for him because he figured RPG combat was just “swing a sword/shoot an arrow until the other guy dies”. We had to explain it to him. He also never thought to explore the UI for information as to why his movement was reduced or why he was disadvantaged, despite having icons next to his character with tooltips explaining what status effects were in play. While it may seem obvious that things are happening on screen and one could deduce that something meaningful is occuring, I think if I’m honest, I can’t blame my buddy for not understanding. I’ve fallen victim to it myself.
Sometimes we just don’t, on our own, interpret information as being meaningful. Consequently, we unduly discard it before making decisions. I think it’s important to be told in one form or the other when something matters. Whether that’s tutorialization or otherwise, I think it’s important. I think the more complicated the game, the easier it is for a player to fall in to a trap of discarding important information and subsequently becoming frustrated.
I think even something as simple as the game making its expectations clear from the start could go a long way. Something as simple as conveying to the user that they are expected to be attentive as they play.
This line strikes me as curious. Were you playing co-op together for his first time through? There are a lot of tutorials in the early game that explain so much of this stuff that you have to explicitly dismiss that they’re hard to miss…unless you’re in a discord call with some friends. And did you have to explain it to him, or was that just the first opportunity he had to raise the question, and you answered right away without him having time to figure it out himself? Did he ask you because he found the game difficult, or did you just tell him without him even asking because you observed that he wasn’t using his movement? The opening moments of the game actually require you to use your movement in turn based combat in order to continue, and you can observe which enemies can reach you or not as you approach your objective.
If your friend really had this hard of a time learning that without trying to see how to overcome the challenge by just doing anything else besides what didn’t work, it sounds like the type of person that Sony gets for their play tests that tells them they need to give an answer to a puzzle after looking at it for only a few seconds. I don’t know that you can onboard that person without frustrating everyone else, other than easy mode, which BG3 does have, and it tells you what kinds of expectations it has of you on that screen.
I suppose it was a bit of both.
It was three of us playing. I had finished the game already by the time we started. At first, we left it to him to explore the systems on his own. He got frustrated with that and would complain that we weren’t telling him what to do. So, we gradually explained more and more until we just started making decisions on our own. He was still frustrated. For example, late in to Act I, he would continue to throw his cleric in to the middle of battle as a melee fighter and die. Shortly after that, we all decided to stop playing.
I must have missed them, then. I don’t recall any tutorials explaining anything beyond the cursory “you have to be in range to attack” or “potions heal HP” type of things. In fact, I loaded up my save and perused the tutorials again. The tutorial titled “Combat” simply tells you that there’s an initiative roll, combatants are listed at the top of the screen, and during a turn, a character may take an action, bonus action, and move. It’s entirely unhelpful. It may as well be a fighting game tutorial which says, “use punches and kicks to defeat your opponent.”
I got through it by just running past most everyone. Sure, you can clearly see you have to move and that you have actions to take but nothing else is explained beyond that. I think that opening sequence is a great example of the lack of explanations in the game. My buddy thought he had to kill absolutely everyone on the nautiloid. We tried twice before telling him that you can continue moving past enemies. The thought never occured to him. I can’t blame him, either. All you’re told is that you have to connect the transponder in a certain amount of turns and narratively, there’s a sense of urgency. Nothing tells you that you don’t have to kill everything on the screen. That might seem painfully obvious but that’s my point: things obvious to one person are not obvious to another. That doesn’t make someone stupid, either. They just have different experiences and different expectations.
Nothing in the game explains that encounters are not immutable. Nothing in the game, as far as I can remember, explains the value of environmental elements and how to leverage them in combat. Nothing explains the tactical value of oil or water on the ground. Nothing explains the concept of crowd control at all. Nothing explains how to keep backline party members safe. This is all left for the player to discover.
I’ve been playing Larian games for a long time and I don’t remember a single one of BGIII, DOS2, or DOS ever explaining these concepts. If you walk in to these games without the understanding that you are expected to be observant and play around with the game mechanics, you will have a bad time. There are innumerable posts on the Web by people frustrated with the game because they don’t know what to do. My buddy is not an isolated example. People think differently.
My buddy tried fighting in melee combat as a low-level cleric. That might be a totally valid thing to do in something like Final Fantasy. My buddy thought he had to kill every enemy on the nautiloid. Maybe that’s just what you do in something like Diablo. Hell, I just finished a dungeon in Star Ocean which required exactly that. (It even told me upfront that would be the expectation of the dungeon) We are taught things which influence our decision making process. Without being told otherwise, it can be hard to understand exactly what is being asked of us as players as we try to reconcile those expections with our experiences.
My buddy didn’t need to be told what to do. What he needed to be told is what he can do and why he might want to do those things. In that, Larian failed him and, in my opinion as an adoring fan of their games, they have a habit of doing so.
I don’t think you actually let your friend fail and try to figure out how to not fail, and I don’t think it makes the game better when you’re so afraid of letting the player fail and apply what they’ve learned that there aren’t actually any decisions to make, like those Sony examples (God of War and Horizon’s latest entries, to be specific, were the ones that caught flak for this). That’s where the fun comes from.
And that’s all you need to know in order to determine that positioning matters. They also explain opportunity attacks.
Which are a few of the things you said your friend was unaware of, despite the fact that several of these things are reiterated on most of the cards for your available actions during combat.
Me neither, but even in my brief time with DOS1, I don’t recall needing to be told either. I just somehow found out that poison clouds can be set on fire, and very quickly.
This is not an insult to your friend, but just because he falls into the group that didn’t catch on immediately, I don’t think that’s indicative that the game is bad at teaching you how to play it. The Nautiloid highlights exactly where you have to go and how many turns you have to do it. If you let him fail once and try again, presumably, he’d realize that what he was doing wasn’t working and notice that giant UI element telling him how many turns he had to get to his objective.