Why is it cowardly? What do you think the purpose of a protest is? Your face does not lend a protest additional credibility, it just makes it easier to target you. The purpose of a protest is to show that people support a cause. Who those people are is irrelevant unless you plan to target them.
where you have nothing to fear of government from protesting
There is no such thing. Surveillance is something to fear. Tracking is something to fear. Lack of anonymity is in itself something to fear, because anonymity (i.e. privacy) is a right. It’s not just about arrests or physical abuse.
There is nothing “cowardly” about exercising your right to privacy.
If the position you are pushing is truly of no concern to the government, it means either that a) they’re on board with it, so it’s not actually a protest just a rally, or b) you’re not large enough for them to care yet. More likely, you just don’t realize they do actually care.
You’re basically just making a variation on the “if you have nothing to hide, you shouldn’t care about not having privacy” argument.
I fully agree that surveillance is something to fear, but again, if you are living in a free country like Sweden, then you won’t be arrested simply for protesting, vandalism and violence however, those are things you will be arrested for.
A surveillance camera could also prove that you were peaceful if you are caught up in a bad situation if you can be identified.
A surveillance camera could also prove that you were peaceful if you are caught up in a bad situation if you can be identified.
Just to be clear, you think you’re allowed to protest, but also think that you may have to prove your innocence, rather than having your guilt be proven?
It sounds like you actually realize that you’re more at the whims of the government than your claims about being free let on.
“I am going to alter my actions in order to ensure that I am as safe from false accusation as I can be” is just self-censorship because you actually do fear your government.
I get what you are saying, and no, I don’t believe you should have to prove yourself innocent.
I simply ment it as if I happened to be part of a mass arrest by accident and can be identified as having done nothing, I would be let go with an apology.
If you live in a society that lives under mass surveilance, it is not a free society. You’re not making me think you know what protesting is. You’re describing petition, and you’re really making it sound like maybe you have access to the kinds of privilege that are hard to imagine within an overall hierarchical society. It sounds like you don’t want countries your nations companies profit from to rise up in rejection of the fossil fuel profiteering that gives you access to these things. Please realize the “free society” you live in is the same tortured society the rest of us are trying to dismantle that you’re saying don’t have enough freedom to qualify for your masks off argument.
Which is to say nothing about that this whole discussion has pulled us off the original accessibility concern immunocomprimised people experience. Your masks off argument would see these people stripped of access to the right to petition that you hold dear. When I think about it it genuinely makes me angry just how dismissive of what everyone else is saying. We’re telling you about a REAL and present threat and your response is just to say if we lived in a free society we wouldn’t have to fight for our rights. We know! We know that! That’s why we fight. But what’s frustrating is that your society isn’t as free as you’re saying. You live in a country with active neo Nazi and white supremacist factions. What are you going to do if they gain access to that mass surveilance mechanism. How are you going to tell them you don’t want the descendants of slaves in your country to get lynched? You gonna ask politely?
We have had those environmental glue protests here, while I dislike their methods, I have never seen them try and hide their identities, I do respect that, that tells me that they actually are believing in what they do, and not just using the cause a way to cause destruction.
So far, I can’t remember any of their protests devolving into rioting or violence, at least not from their side.
In my experience neo nazis are way more prone to mask in their protests than other groups.
Oh. Sorry. Didn’t realize risking bodily injury from tear gas, rubber bullets, beanbags, and nightsticks because something fucking matters was cowardly. You bring up such eloquent and well reasoned points. I’ll keep them in mind the next time the police are kettling me or a Nazi throws a brick at one of my friends. I’ll say to myself “you know. We probably deserved this for being so cowardly”
And what do you think I’m talking about? Cops and fascists want to hurt me for saying it’s not okay for their boys to kill a member of my community. I don’t wanna give them any opportunity to come arrest me for some made up bullshit about how I was doing disorderly conduct in public, and then resisted arrest, and then assaulted an officer. If you’re getting out in public with your face in view and not worried, congrats. You’ve won the racial lottery. Meanwhile the rest of us gotta keep our heads on a swivel because of our facial features, hair texture, and skin color depending on what the cops find to hate in us.
So… Be an activist in a way that works for performative white liberals? Is that the overall message you’re gunning for? Because I mask up to protect my brethren when we go to fight back against police injustice and fascism. I’m signing my shit by showing up and risking arrest. We mask up because some of us are more vulnerable to wrongful arrest and conviction than others. Stop telling people the way they’re fighting fascists is wrong and hiding behind saying who you’re actually standing against is the proud boys. Your stance is cowardice. Your stance is to paint within the lines, to be polite, and to ask nicely for the lives we were born into this world with a right to but aren’t always given.
lol… my stance is cowardice? Funny. Considering you have no idea who I am or what I do. But the fact that you make blanket assessments of people online from a mere few sentences speaks volumes about you.
Doublespeak? What’s doublespeak about saying that people like The Proud Boys are cowards? If you can’t show your face and stand behind your statement- your statement should be dismissed.
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removed by mod
Why is it cowardly? What do you think the purpose of a protest is? Your face does not lend a protest additional credibility, it just makes it easier to target you. The purpose of a protest is to show that people support a cause. Who those people are is irrelevant unless you plan to target them.
Not discussing anything where the point being debated was removed.
Sorry.
It is cowardly to hide behind a mask in a free country where you have nothing to fear of government from protesting.
I do however agree that it is sensible to mask in a country where protesting in and of itself will arrest and mistreatment from the government.
There is no such thing. Surveillance is something to fear. Tracking is something to fear. Lack of anonymity is in itself something to fear, because anonymity (i.e. privacy) is a right. It’s not just about arrests or physical abuse.
There is nothing “cowardly” about exercising your right to privacy.
If the position you are pushing is truly of no concern to the government, it means either that a) they’re on board with it, so it’s not actually a protest just a rally, or b) you’re not large enough for them to care yet. More likely, you just don’t realize they do actually care.
You’re basically just making a variation on the “if you have nothing to hide, you shouldn’t care about not having privacy” argument.
I fully agree that surveillance is something to fear, but again, if you are living in a free country like Sweden, then you won’t be arrested simply for protesting, vandalism and violence however, those are things you will be arrested for.
A surveillance camera could also prove that you were peaceful if you are caught up in a bad situation if you can be identified.
Just to be clear, you think you’re allowed to protest, but also think that you may have to prove your innocence, rather than having your guilt be proven?
It sounds like you actually realize that you’re more at the whims of the government than your claims about being free let on.
“I am going to alter my actions in order to ensure that I am as safe from false accusation as I can be” is just self-censorship because you actually do fear your government.
I get what you are saying, and no, I don’t believe you should have to prove yourself innocent.
I simply ment it as if I happened to be part of a mass arrest by accident and can be identified as having done nothing, I would be let go with an apology.
If you live in a society that lives under mass surveilance, it is not a free society. You’re not making me think you know what protesting is. You’re describing petition, and you’re really making it sound like maybe you have access to the kinds of privilege that are hard to imagine within an overall hierarchical society. It sounds like you don’t want countries your nations companies profit from to rise up in rejection of the fossil fuel profiteering that gives you access to these things. Please realize the “free society” you live in is the same tortured society the rest of us are trying to dismantle that you’re saying don’t have enough freedom to qualify for your masks off argument.
Which is to say nothing about that this whole discussion has pulled us off the original accessibility concern immunocomprimised people experience. Your masks off argument would see these people stripped of access to the right to petition that you hold dear. When I think about it it genuinely makes me angry just how dismissive of what everyone else is saying. We’re telling you about a REAL and present threat and your response is just to say if we lived in a free society we wouldn’t have to fight for our rights. We know! We know that! That’s why we fight. But what’s frustrating is that your society isn’t as free as you’re saying. You live in a country with active neo Nazi and white supremacist factions. What are you going to do if they gain access to that mass surveilance mechanism. How are you going to tell them you don’t want the descendants of slaves in your country to get lynched? You gonna ask politely?
We have had those environmental glue protests here, while I dislike their methods, I have never seen them try and hide their identities, I do respect that, that tells me that they actually are believing in what they do, and not just using the cause a way to cause destruction.
So far, I can’t remember any of their protests devolving into rioting or violence, at least not from their side.
In my experience neo nazis are way more prone to mask in their protests than other groups.
OP sure did.
removed by mod
Oh. Sorry. Didn’t realize risking bodily injury from tear gas, rubber bullets, beanbags, and nightsticks because something fucking matters was cowardly. You bring up such eloquent and well reasoned points. I’ll keep them in mind the next time the police are kettling me or a Nazi throws a brick at one of my friends. I’ll say to myself “you know. We probably deserved this for being so cowardly”
I’m talking about hiding one’s identity. I thought that was evident. Guess it needed explaining.
And what do you think I’m talking about? Cops and fascists want to hurt me for saying it’s not okay for their boys to kill a member of my community. I don’t wanna give them any opportunity to come arrest me for some made up bullshit about how I was doing disorderly conduct in public, and then resisted arrest, and then assaulted an officer. If you’re getting out in public with your face in view and not worried, congrats. You’ve won the racial lottery. Meanwhile the rest of us gotta keep our heads on a swivel because of our facial features, hair texture, and skin color depending on what the cops find to hate in us.
Again, my belief is- don’t do shit if you’re not willing to sign your name on it.
So… Be an activist in a way that works for performative white liberals? Is that the overall message you’re gunning for? Because I mask up to protect my brethren when we go to fight back against police injustice and fascism. I’m signing my shit by showing up and risking arrest. We mask up because some of us are more vulnerable to wrongful arrest and conviction than others. Stop telling people the way they’re fighting fascists is wrong and hiding behind saying who you’re actually standing against is the proud boys. Your stance is cowardice. Your stance is to paint within the lines, to be polite, and to ask nicely for the lives we were born into this world with a right to but aren’t always given.
lol… my stance is cowardice? Funny. Considering you have no idea who I am or what I do. But the fact that you make blanket assessments of people online from a mere few sentences speaks volumes about you.
We’re done here. This is useless.
How is it cowardly?
Not sure what you’re talking about. Comment was deleted.
Classic lemm.ee response
This is blatant doublespeak, and has been removed because of such.
Doublespeak? What’s doublespeak about saying that people like The Proud Boys are cowards? If you can’t show your face and stand behind your statement- your statement should be dismissed.
The top level comment mentions freedom?
Reply with a pic of your face or you’re a coward and your comments mean nothing.