I’ve used a US-QWERTY keyboard layout my entire life. I’ve seen other layouts that do things like reduce the size of the enter/backspace keys, move the pipe operator (|) and can’t wrap my head around how I would code on those.
What are your experiences? Are there any layouts that you prefer for coding over US English? Are there any symbols that you have a hard time reaching ($ for example)?
I believe most people in Europe use a localized ISO layout. I used ISO for most my life but in my personal opinion ANSI is way better for software development. I just don’t see myself ever going back to ISO.
I wish I was brave enough to try Colemak or Dvorak, tho!
I’m used to the ISO layout, so whenever I type on an ANSI keyboard I miss the enter key and hit the one above. It’s annoyingly hard to find laptops with ISO keyboards.
I use a 42 key layout modified from bépo (french dvorak inspired layout) with the altgr layer of ergol. Go check this altgr layer it’s awesome for programming, and there is a version compatible for qwerty and lafayette.
No way - the two enter keys are about the same size - yours is just rotated 90 degrees and further away. That’s not an improvement. Even worse though is the tiny left shift key - I can’t get used to that.
With an ANSI keyboard you can comfortably reach the enter and left shift without taking your other fingers off the home row. With ISO you have to move your arm which is particularly bad for the shift key since you might need to press other keys at the same time, but now your hand is in the wrong position.
On the ISO keyboards I’ve seen, the enter key has way more than double the surface area than ANSI, so it’s definitely not ‘just rotated 90 degrees’. Also these people probably grew up with ISO and struggle with ANSI, just like you probably grew up with ANSI and struggle with ISO.
The enter key I got used to on an ANSI keyboard I had for a while but what actually made the bigger difference was the \\/| key being above the enter key at the far right end of the keyboard which is hard to reach with the pinky. Rather important key for being that hard to reach.
Yes, I’ve been on Norwegian Dvorak since 2002 or so.
Biggest problem I’ve had is with keyboards and OS’es (cough 🍎) that don’t support the Insert key, because (a) I cut my teeth on the DOS editor and (b) XCV are all over the place on this layout.
I will always use a proper full size keyboard if at all possible. Those 60% and whatnot are not for me (it’s bad enough when they move the arrow keys).
Oh, and the languages insisting on ${} characters are a pain on any non US layout.
UK QWERTY, no trouble hitting any keys. $ is not hard to reach, | is a bit annoying since it’s right next to shift, which you need to type it, but it’s not too bad.
Did you know about the New AZERTY ? I’ve been using it for a few years now and it’s definitely a great improvement, while remaining compatible enough with the standard one so you are not lost when you use a colleague’s setup.
I heard about it, but the issue I usually have with other layouts is that I find myself looking for “infrequent” symbols a lot.
Maybe this one would be easier to get used to than other layouts such as Bépo since, as you said, it is relatively compatible with regular AZERTY.
The thing is, this layout moves symbols to places that are much easier to remember (~ is altgr+n, ç is altgr+c, $ is altgr+d, parenthesis/brackets are next to each other, etc…)
I got used to it very quickly because the new placement makes sense, and the fact you only have to remember symbols and not alphanum chars helps a lot.
Definitely worth trying IMO.
What are your experiences? Are there any layouts that you prefer for coding over US English? Are there any symbols that you have a hard time reaching ($ for example)?
I’m using a PT-PT ISO layout keyboard, zero issues reaching anything, works as good as your US keyboard for coding. Actually it might work better because I have a bigger “enter” key.
can’t wrap my head around how I would code on those.
Typical American trying to comprehend that people from other countries exist? :P
Think about it this way, all the EU keyboards are essentially the same as yours but tweaked to accommodate languages that have more special chars than English.
I live in Brazil but I also use US- Dvorak as OP. Is a pita everytime I need to write the ç, or õã cause I have to change the keyboard just to write a letter.
Fellow PT-PT ISO user here. And although I use PT-PT in the OS, both my mechanical keyboards’ physical layout is DE ISO, which has most special symbols in the same place. (finding DE keyboards is easier)
I’ve considered switching to UK ISO before. Typing brackets “[] {}” and a semicolon “;” is harder in PT-PT.
Especially the curly brackets {}, which are really awkward to type with my small hands.
I prefer a British keyboard layout as that’s where I’ve always lived and that’s what all the computers come with here.
Actually no, Apple fucks it up a bit by having a weird hybrid between US layout and British layout which is pretty infuriating to have to learn (opt+3 for the # character? wtf Apple?), particularly given I switch between PC and Mac daily
This drove me up the wall. And, I hate to admit it, but I’ve let Apple win. I use Windoze for work so I’ve swapped @ and " to be the same as Apple UK, and if I run Linux I choose the Apple UK layout as well. It’s just…easier rather than having to reset my muscle memory every day.
Ahh, I can’t make that change I’ve used windows and Linux for many more years than I have Macs, the Mac way will always be the one that feels wrong to me!
Basically means I inevitably have to do the "@£`# dance a couple times a day
Pro tip for fellow yuropean devs: you can change the layout, and learn it easily.
Pro tip for fellow ISO enjoyers living in yurop: a keyboard on Amazon costs 20$. If you’re using a laptop you can order one from the UK, it’s mostly the same, except beware of the mental asylum layouts that move this | key to the bottom left. You can also buy a laptop from amazon.com if you filter by “global shipping”. Power bricks always work with 110/220/240, the cable that goes into the plug is easily exchangeable for 10$.
Some premium brands let you choose the layout. E.g. xmg, slimbook.
Pro tip for enjoyers of any layout: You don’t need to buy a different physical layout to type in a different layout. You can just switch it out on the software side. The computer has no idea and does not care what’s printed on the keycaps.
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I believe most people in Europe use a localized ISO layout. I used ISO for most my life but in my personal opinion ANSI is way better for software development. I just don’t see myself ever going back to ISO.
I wish I was brave enough to try Colemak or Dvorak, tho!
I’m used to the ISO layout, so whenever I type on an ANSI keyboard I miss the enter key and hit the one above. It’s annoyingly hard to find laptops with ISO keyboards.
Yeah I forgot that they do this weird ANSI/ISO mix for laptops.
I use UK-Layout, with some remappings for my precious umlauts
q+altgr ->ü
a+altgr -> ä
s+altgr -> ß
z+algr -> ö
bonus: in contrast to the peasentry I have an uppercase ẞ (altgr+shift+s)
You can adapt to a new layout pretty easily. I already did it twice due to moving to new country.
I just use the Swiss keyboard layout. Here’s an image from Wikipedia.
Don’t have any experience with any others.
Aren’t brackets hard to type in Swiss layout? Most of my Swiss coworkers switch to US.
Maybe in comparison to the US layout? I’m not having any trouble with them.
If you mean the [] (and {}), they just use the right alt key, which is close enough to them.
I use a 42 key layout modified from bépo (french dvorak inspired layout) with the altgr layer of ergol. Go check this altgr layer it’s awesome for programming, and there is a version compatible for qwerty and lafayette.
ISO for life.
You can keep your stupid tiny little enter key.
No way - the two enter keys are about the same size - yours is just rotated 90 degrees and further away. That’s not an improvement. Even worse though is the tiny left shift key - I can’t get used to that.
With an ANSI keyboard you can comfortably reach the enter and left shift without taking your other fingers off the home row. With ISO you have to move your arm which is particularly bad for the shift key since you might need to press other keys at the same time, but now your hand is in the wrong position.
hahaha, no.
On the ISO keyboards I’ve seen, the enter key has way more than double the surface area than ANSI, so it’s definitely not ‘just rotated 90 degrees’. Also these people probably grew up with ISO and struggle with ANSI, just like you probably grew up with ANSI and struggle with ISO.
This!
Oh good I hate that tiny little enter key.
The enter key I got used to on an ANSI keyboard I had for a while but what actually made the bigger difference was the
\\/|key being above the enter key at the far right end of the keyboard which is hard to reach with the pinky. Rather important key for being that hard to reach.I used DVORAK for years, but went back to QUERTY mostly because it made life hard on on the rare occasion I needed to use someone else’s computer.
Yes, I’ve been on Norwegian Dvorak since 2002 or so.
Biggest problem I’ve had is with keyboards and OS’es (cough 🍎) that don’t support the Insert key, because (a) I cut my teeth on the DOS editor and (b) XCV are all over the place on this layout.
I will always use a proper full size keyboard if at all possible. Those 60% and whatnot are not for me (it’s bad enough when they move the arrow keys).
Oh, and the languages insisting on ${} characters are a pain on any non US layout.
Switch to Colemak and that XCV goodness is right where it needs to be.
Never had a nicer typing experience, thanks to DreymaR introducing me to DHm-angle-wide-mod. Colemak FTW!
🐑
UK QWERTY, no trouble hitting any keys. $ is not hard to reach, | is a bit annoying since it’s right next to shift, which you need to type it, but it’s not too bad.
I use the FR-AZERTY layout. You honestly get used to the layout you have to work with.
Did you know about the New AZERTY ? I’ve been using it for a few years now and it’s definitely a great improvement, while remaining compatible enough with the standard one so you are not lost when you use a colleague’s setup.
I heard about it, but the issue I usually have with other layouts is that I find myself looking for “infrequent” symbols a lot. Maybe this one would be easier to get used to than other layouts such as Bépo since, as you said, it is relatively compatible with regular AZERTY.
The thing is, this layout moves symbols to places that are much easier to remember (~ is altgr+n, ç is altgr+c, $ is altgr+d, parenthesis/brackets are next to each other, etc…) I got used to it very quickly because the new placement makes sense, and the fact you only have to remember symbols and not alphanum chars helps a lot. Definitely worth trying IMO.
I’m pretty sure most people outside the US do that
I’m using a PT-PT ISO layout keyboard, zero issues reaching anything, works as good as your US keyboard for coding. Actually it might work better because I have a bigger “enter” key.
Typical American trying to comprehend that people from other countries exist? :P
Think about it this way, all the EU keyboards are essentially the same as yours but tweaked to accommodate languages that have more special chars than English.
I live in Brazil but I also use US- Dvorak as OP. Is a pita everytime I need to write the ç, or õã cause I have to change the keyboard just to write a letter.
You may want to take a look at dvorak-intl and or dvorak-alt-intl, which adds the alt-gr layer to type language specific characters
I think I tried it once, but the R and L had their position changed, and not all machines have the intl version so I just went back to the US one.
Fellow PT-PT ISO user here. And although I use PT-PT in the OS, both my mechanical keyboards’ physical layout is DE ISO, which has most special symbols in the same place. (finding DE keyboards is easier)
I’ve considered switching to UK ISO before. Typing brackets “
[] {}” and a semicolon “;” is harder in PT-PT. Especially the curly brackets{}, which are really awkward to type with my small hands.I prefer a British keyboard layout as that’s where I’ve always lived and that’s what all the computers come with here.
Actually no, Apple fucks it up a bit by having a weird hybrid between US layout and British layout which is pretty infuriating to have to learn (opt+3 for the # character? wtf Apple?), particularly given I switch between PC and Mac daily
This drove me up the wall. And, I hate to admit it, but I’ve let Apple win. I use Windoze for work so I’ve swapped @ and " to be the same as Apple UK, and if I run Linux I choose the Apple UK layout as well. It’s just…easier rather than having to reset my muscle memory every day.
Ahh, I can’t make that change I’ve used windows and Linux for many more years than I have Macs, the Mac way will always be the one that feels wrong to me!
Basically means I inevitably have to do the "@£`# dance a couple times a day
quick AZERTY users this is the time to show we exist!
Well, after trying a US keyboard for coding I never went back to a french one. It’s so much easier…
I have read somewhere that france and belgium have a minor code deficit compared to eurooeab countys that use qwerty.
Looking it up its not hard to see why.
Interesting, but I’m skeptical. Couldn’t find anything that corroborates.
I understand your premise as a quality deficit, but really the issue I had was typing speed / convenience.
It’s more of a QOL thing. The final code is the same quality I think.
Also, we spend much our time reading and thinking about the code rather than writing it.
Pro tip for fellow yuropean devs: you can change the layout, and learn it easily.
Pro tip for fellow ISO enjoyers living in yurop: a keyboard on Amazon costs 20$. If you’re using a laptop you can order one from the UK, it’s mostly the same, except beware of the mental asylum layouts that move this
|key to the bottom left. You can also buy a laptop from amazon.com if you filter by “global shipping”. Power bricks always work with 110/220/240, the cable that goes into the plug is easily exchangeable for 10$.Some premium brands let you choose the layout. E.g. xmg, slimbook.
Pro tip for enjoyers of any layout: You don’t need to buy a different physical layout to type in a different layout. You can just switch it out on the software side. The computer has no idea and does not care what’s printed on the keycaps.