I’ve been buying these little boxes from AliExpress for years to use as firewalls and routers. My oldest one is almost 9 years old now! OpenBSD installs just fine. Just a BIOS tweak to always boot up after power is restored.
I recognise that internet router on the right. That looks like the “smart router” Telstra gives their customers - we have one we used to use back when we had Telstra cable. It’s currently playing the duty of an Ethernet switch for dad’s office.
Ive wanted one of these for a while to replace my ISPs modem+router+switch+wifi-AP. But apparently these devices can be funky to get a good wifi going, and I don’t feel like adding three (mini pc, switch, AP) new devices to my “we don’t talk about it” corner where all the IT is stored. Do you know anything about wifi on these?
Is location the only reason to not use it as the AP? If I had a larger house I’d agree, but as I live in a small apartment, the current router location can easily serve the entire flat, so that is no concern right now.
I picked up a 7 year old Netgear modem/router on eBay that has replaced my ISP modem/router. The WiFi is better, and I can port forward without taking all the cables out of the back (yeah that’s a thing with the ISP one) and forward traffic through my Adguard DNS. Well worth the £25 I bought it for.
Also if it starts annoying me I can throw OPENWRT on it and play with that instead.
pfSense has a very good record, but OpenBSD’s record and code quality are literally unparalleled.
Conversely, I spend a fair bit of time working on devices made by SonicWall, Fortinet, etc. and it’s all fucking garbage.
Are you concerned about it being designed in China in addition to the conventional and thoroughly ubiquitous “manufactured in China”? Please explain your concerns in detail.
I use one with 6 LAN ports and a 10th gen i5 running OPNsense, and it has worked well for years. It runs many services including Unbound DNS and Suricata with capacity to spare. It’s much better than any consumer router, though I run WiFi separately with an Asus AI Mesh set to AP mode.
The only concerns are that you don’t get BIOS updates, and you don’t know for sure that there’s nothing nasty in the firmware. But then you don’t really know that on consumer routers either.
Mine died after 2 years after a power cut.
I havent tried to debug it yet. At the time, it would power on but a monitor didnt see anything from the video port, and it didnt seem to actually boot.
I presume it is toast.
If you dont need compact, a rebfurbed SFF with a 4 port network card is gonna be cheaper
I’d be surprised if it wasn’t just based off the UEFI sdk examples containing 30+ CVEs over the last couple of years. If anything, it won’t get patched for logofail and all the others UEFI exploits we’ll definitely see in the coming years.
I was wondering… that tp-link probably negates anything remotely resembling security on its own. But yeah, you can update some of these noname boxes easily, others, not so much.
I have dealt with (in a professional capacity) Chinese manufacturers that are under the impression they do not have to provide a working build tree for the kernel, let alone firmware, so its a gamble if you’re not talking to a major Chinese name brand. Mind you, I was ordering hundreds of those boxes, so there was some leverage.
That TP-link is a dumb switch. Unless you’re telling me that someone is going to find an opening in the firmware and hack their way into the ARP table or something (in which case the threat model here just became state actors and I don’t think the OP is safe with this equipment), I don’t think it affects much, if anything.
Now, if I’m mistaken and that is actually a managed switch; god help them with network security.
They do make managed switches, but just to be completely clear, my comment was mostly hyperbole. I just found the general combination of security - mindedness and cheap Chinese hardware curious / amusing.
I did realise that, and apologies for my tone earlier.
With that said, this seems to be a slight bias - unless the PCB has some nefarious spy-chip built inside, hardware is hardware, regardless of where it comes from.
The problem is that their Web interface and firmware in general are not updated (at all). I think it’s even possible for script kiddies to hack into such managed switches, which forms the reasoning behind my comment.
Does your switch produce its Web interface over TLS?
Doesn’t look like it but if I get up VLANs unless an user is on the correct VLAN they can’t access the web interface. And the only way for them to get access is to get physical access and plug a device into the correct port.
Open source bios yes, but you still have close source firmware blobs for amd/intel used on those systems. The only way to do this is to make 100% of the hardware.
Also please note, I am using coreboot already on my pcengines router.
I’m bent on getting as many people as I know to self-host everything possible and to guard their home networks. The garbage out there today is too much.
For sure. I’m hoping that with much cheaper and more reliable hardware
that we have now, it makes it easier for indivduals and small groups
to run services that could only be run by big dysfunctional companies.
Fingers crossed! @jjlinux@selfhosted
It’s not much, but I got a friend from church (die-hard Apple user) to love away from all that crap. He now owns a Pixel 6 Pro running Graphene and is running PopOS on an Intel Mac. Sold his IPhone too.
He says that I am the only person he knows that preaches 2 Gospels 🤣🤣
I personally never understood the desire for BSD. BSD was good back in the day but we now have Linux which is better supported and protected under the GPL.
PfSense and OPNsense are both killer router “out of the box” distros built on BSD. I say this as a Linux user, with little interest in running BSD for my applications, but… Respect to BSD. ✊
I run OpenWRT and it works pretty well. The only potential issue is the updates but if you have a plan it isn’t a problem.
Maybe I’m missing out but from my perspective it is way cheaper to buy a off the shelf router with OpenWRT that can handle gigabit speeds than it is is to build/buy a entire computer that pulls way more power and is several times the cost.
Openwrt works great for gigabit networks with simple firewall rules and no IPS. But used 10-56gbps enterprise equipment is getting pretty cheap, and more complicated firewall configurations need more powerful hardware than the typical openwrt router.
And 56gbps on a home LAN might be overkill, but that’s not important.
I recently installed OPNsense specifically because I had to buy a mini PC with 2.5 gig ports. There simply isn’t anything reasonable on the market for the prosumer above the 1 gig threshold. Running splendidly on a Beelink EQ12.
Also, OPNsense has things OpenWRT doesn’t offer (plugins, IPS, etc.)
I couldn’t agree more. I’ve been running PFsense for about 5 years, great little toy, not 1 single issue. BSD has been paramount in my life for my firewall needs. And I only run Linux on everything else (desktops and servers), but there is not a single FOSS firewall distro out there that can match, much less surpass, a BSD based firewall.
@madcaesar@otl It’s a small server running OpenBSD, configured to operate as a router and/or firewall.
Linux and the *BSDs can operate as very good routers and firewalls, usually being much more configurable and enabling you to do more complex than off-the-shelf consumer-level hardware routers. Using them on a small form factor computer with a cheap switch in front of them can give you a better performing and nicer to use alternative.
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I recognise that internet router on the right. That looks like the “smart router” Telstra gives their customers - we have one we used to use back when we had Telstra cable. It’s currently playing the duty of an Ethernet switch for dad’s office.
Smg2?
Good eyes! Yes this is one we got from Telstra on a VDSL NBN connection. Now it’s just a modem in bridge mode with Aussie Broadband
@selfhosted @Da_Boom
What bios tweak do you apply? That’s the one thing I still need to do.
These things are awesome!
Restore power status after AC loss
Basically auto power on after restore power.
Meaning if you get unplugged (or power outage) turn back on like any other networking gear.
Acronyms, initialisms, abbreviations, contractions, and other phrases which expand to something larger, that I’ve seen in this thread:
5 acronyms in this thread; the most compressed thread commented on today has 9 acronyms.
[Thread #543 for this sub, first seen 25th Feb 2024, 15:45] [FAQ] [Full list] [Contact] [Source code]
Ive wanted one of these for a while to replace my ISPs modem+router+switch+wifi-AP. But apparently these devices can be funky to get a good wifi going, and I don’t feel like adding three (mini pc, switch, AP) new devices to my “we don’t talk about it” corner where all the IT is stored. Do you know anything about wifi on these?
It’s usually considered a poor idea to use it also as an AP.
The location usually isn’t great for your WiFi and there are better tools for the job.
Is location the only reason to not use it as the AP? If I had a larger house I’d agree, but as I live in a small apartment, the current router location can easily serve the entire flat, so that is no concern right now.
I picked up a 7 year old Netgear modem/router on eBay that has replaced my ISP modem/router. The WiFi is better, and I can port forward without taking all the cables out of the back (yeah that’s a thing with the ISP one) and forward traffic through my Adguard DNS. Well worth the £25 I bought it for.
Also if it starts annoying me I can throw OPENWRT on it and play with that instead.
I have one of these with PFSense on it. Works great, but when I had it in a hot room I had to zip tie a 120mm fan to it 😀
I bought some half-inch silicone feet to separate mine from the shelf it sits on. The added airflow underneath seems to do just fine.
So these noname boxes are good for making a hardware firewall/network?
Sure as long as security isn’t a concern
Ok, cool - do we have astroturfing on lemmy now?
pfSense has a very good record, but OpenBSD’s record and code quality are literally unparalleled.
Conversely, I spend a fair bit of time working on devices made by SonicWall, Fortinet, etc. and it’s all fucking garbage.
Are you concerned about it being designed in China in addition to the conventional and thoroughly ubiquitous “manufactured in China”? Please explain your concerns in detail.
As @floofloof@lemmy.ca stated:
I use one with 6 LAN ports and a 10th gen i5 running OPNsense, and it has worked well for years. It runs many services including Unbound DNS and Suricata with capacity to spare. It’s much better than any consumer router, though I run WiFi separately with an Asus AI Mesh set to AP mode.
The only concerns are that you don’t get BIOS updates, and you don’t know for sure that there’s nothing nasty in the firmware. But then you don’t really know that on consumer routers either.
Yeah, as long as it it’s one with 2+ network ports. I use a little 4 port with pfsense loaded on it for my home network.
Mine died after 2 years after a power cut.
I havent tried to debug it yet. At the time, it would power on but a monitor didnt see anything from the video port, and it didnt seem to actually boot.
I presume it is toast.
If you dont need compact, a rebfurbed SFF with a 4 port network card is gonna be cheaper
I’ve been running one for the past 6+ months with no issues.
Any cheap 2x 2.5gb n100 ones yet?
https://cybergeekpc.com/products/cybergeek-mini-pc-nano-j1
Only on port so you can’t use it as a router unfortunately
There are a few 5x 2.5g N100 for $120-130 USD range on AliExpress. I grabbed one a while back for my own network.
Do any of those cheap Chinese computers ever get any firmware or bios updates?
None that I know of :(
But @benjja tells me that on some of these you can install coreboot: https://ohnepunktundkomma.org/@benjja/111991771619601081
Something I’m keen to look into.
@cmnybo @selfhosted
@otl @cmnybo @selfhosted
Protectli ported coreboot for their hardware, and with a little research you can find this hardware on aliexpress, of course under a different name.
Does any board ever get firmware updates? I don’t understand your logic.
I’d be surprised if it wasn’t just based off the UEFI sdk examples containing 30+ CVEs over the last couple of years. If anything, it won’t get patched for logofail and all the others UEFI exploits we’ll definitely see in the coming years.
I was wondering… that tp-link probably negates anything remotely resembling security on its own. But yeah, you can update some of these noname boxes easily, others, not so much.
I have dealt with (in a professional capacity) Chinese manufacturers that are under the impression they do not have to provide a working build tree for the kernel, let alone firmware, so its a gamble if you’re not talking to a major Chinese name brand. Mind you, I was ordering hundreds of those boxes, so there was some leverage.
That TP-link is a dumb switch. Unless you’re telling me that someone is going to find an opening in the firmware and hack their way into the ARP table or something (in which case the threat model here just became state actors and I don’t think the OP is safe with this equipment), I don’t think it affects much, if anything.
Now, if I’m mistaken and that is actually a managed switch; god help them with network security.
They do make managed switches, but just to be completely clear, my comment was mostly hyperbole. I just found the general combination of security - mindedness and cheap Chinese hardware curious / amusing.
I did realise that, and apologies for my tone earlier.
With that said, this seems to be a slight bias - unless the PCB has some nefarious spy-chip built inside, hardware is hardware, regardless of where it comes from.
It is a managed switch. What’s wrong with TP-Link managed switches?
I have a basic Netgear managed switch for VLANs.
The problem is that their Web interface and firmware in general are not updated (at all). I think it’s even possible for script kiddies to hack into such managed switches, which forms the reasoning behind my comment.
Does your switch produce its Web interface over TLS?
Doesn’t look like it but if I get up VLANs unless an user is on the correct VLAN they can’t access the web interface. And the only way for them to get access is to get physical access and plug a device into the correct port.
No and they don’t provide the source either. Makes you wonder what’s running in there.
While i agree, no one provides full source blobs for firmware and bios that i am aware of. Please correct me if I am wrong, however.
https://github.com/StarLabsLtd/coreboot
https://support.system76.com/articles/open-firmware-systems/
https://novacustom.com/coreboot-laptop/#get-yours-now
https://www.tuxedocomputers.com/en/Infos/Help-Support/Frequently-asked-questions/Coreboot-on-TUXEDO-Computers-devices.tuxedo
Open source bios yes, but you still have close source firmware blobs for amd/intel used on those systems. The only way to do this is to make 100% of the hardware.
Also please note, I am using coreboot already on my pcengines router.
@otl@hachyderm.io @selfhosted@lemmy.world what machine is that?
This one: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005003378019857.html
Halfway through writing a follow-up blog post detailing set up, internals, etc. Should be available soon if you’re interested :)
@alvaro @selfhosted
@otl@hachyderm.io @selfhosted@lemmy.world absolutely, thank you
The sky’s the limit
@jjlinux Hahaha no way that’s awesome
@selfhosted
I’m bent on getting as many people as I know to self-host everything possible and to guard their home networks. The garbage out there today is too much.
> The garbage out there today is too much.
For sure. I’m hoping that with much cheaper and more reliable hardware
that we have now, it makes it easier for indivduals and small groups
to run services that could only be run by big dysfunctional companies.
Fingers crossed!
@jjlinux @selfhosted
It’s not much, but I got a friend from church (die-hard Apple user) to love away from all that crap. He now owns a Pixel 6 Pro running Graphene and is running PopOS on an Intel Mac. Sold his IPhone too.
He says that I am the only person he knows that preaches 2 Gospels 🤣🤣
I personally never understood the desire for BSD. BSD was good back in the day but we now have Linux which is better supported and protected under the GPL.
PfSense and OPNsense are both killer router “out of the box” distros built on BSD. I say this as a Linux user, with little interest in running BSD for my applications, but… Respect to BSD. ✊
I run OpenWRT and it works pretty well. The only potential issue is the updates but if you have a plan it isn’t a problem.
Maybe I’m missing out but from my perspective it is way cheaper to buy a off the shelf router with OpenWRT that can handle gigabit speeds than it is is to build/buy a entire computer that pulls way more power and is several times the cost.
Openwrt works great for gigabit networks with simple firewall rules and no IPS. But used 10-56gbps enterprise equipment is getting pretty cheap, and more complicated firewall configurations need more powerful hardware than the typical openwrt router.
And 56gbps on a home LAN might be overkill, but that’s not important.
I recently installed OPNsense specifically because I had to buy a mini PC with 2.5 gig ports. There simply isn’t anything reasonable on the market for the prosumer above the 1 gig threshold. Running splendidly on a Beelink EQ12.
Also, OPNsense has things OpenWRT doesn’t offer (plugins, IPS, etc.)
I couldn’t agree more. I’ve been running PFsense for about 5 years, great little toy, not 1 single issue. BSD has been paramount in my life for my firewall needs. And I only run Linux on everything else (desktops and servers), but there is not a single FOSS firewall distro out there that can match, much less surpass, a BSD based firewall.
Yeah. I’ve no need to change to anything else. pf/OPNsense 4life.
Sorry for my ignorance I tried googling but what is this exactly? A server for files or? A media server?
@madcaesar @otl It’s a small server running OpenBSD, configured to operate as a router and/or firewall.
Linux and the *BSDs can operate as very good routers and firewalls, usually being much more configurable and enabling you to do more complex than off-the-shelf consumer-level hardware routers. Using them on a small form factor computer with a cheap switch in front of them can give you a better performing and nicer to use alternative.
An operating system
Throw some hard drives on it and baby, you got a
stewhome media server goin!Why
I’m glad to see that we’re not all addicts here
Because blinking lights give me goo goo ga ga
@Smc87 @selfhosted
Why what?
@otl What CPU does it have?
This one has an old Intel N2830:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005003378019857.html
With this particular model you can get a newer N100 chip
@selfhosted @tk