Some of our most common, ingrained expressions have damaging effects on millions of people – and many of us don't know we're hurting others when we speak.
As a disabled person, I face ableism and ableist language every day. Some people use ableist language without even knowing that it is ableist. I thought it would be good for folks to take a look at the attached BBC article and expand their perspectives a bit.
Why is it hard for you to believe? If someone is telling you that the language you’re using is harmful, is your reaction really to say, basically, that you don’t care and you’re going to continue using it?
If you’re offended by the phrase falling on deaf ears, which is very much just an expression, then you need to go outside more. Nobody is trying to offend deaf people with that phrase.
If nobody is trying to be offensive, and deaf people (one of whom wrote the linked article) are saying that using “deaf” in this way is offensive, and you continue to use it because you don’t care… you’re being offensive. Is it really so hard to change the language you use?
Intent is everything and if someone is clearly not using a word with the intent to offend you, you being offended is a YOU problem, not a them problem.
And before you go say shit like able people can’t know how bad it feels.
1, I’m not “abled”.
2. I’ve had people call me these words meaning to offend and hurt me. THAT actually does hurt. These words being used without any intention to hurt or offend anyone, doesn’t matter to me at all.
And sometimes, using those words to offend is perfectly appropriate to express what you want to convey.
Like how many Americans have absolutely retarded levels of overblown reactions with a word like cunt.
Intent is actually not everything. Legally speaking, if I run over a person with a car and they die, I can’t get away with it by saying, “well, I didn’t intend to kill them, so there shouldn’t be a consequence”. The impact of that person’s death is greater. It’s not murder, but it’s still manslaughter.
Ableist language is the same: it still causes harm, but obviously not harm to the body.
Both are about impact vs intent. Both are about harm. I’m sorry you can’t see that.
If I accidentally spill hot coffee on you and say that it was an accident, you’re still going to be upset. You’d be more upset if I said I did it on purpose, but let’s not pretend that being offensive accidentally is okay.
Even if no charges are laid, someone is dead. The intent to kill wasn’t there, but the impact is that someone is dead. It doesn’t matter if a person didn’t mean to kill someone, but again, someone is dead.
This is why impact matters far more than intent. This is an extreme example, but it still applies in all situations. Someone might want to argue their way out of offending someone else, but the damage has already been done.
I have no idea what hexbear even is. I don’t disagree with everything in the article, just think saying phrases like falling in deaf ears, or a dumb decision, is way extreme on the scale of this is problematic language.
So, deaf people say “Please don’t say that,” and you are the smug asshole that says “How the fuck will they know what I say, they’re fucking deaf. Open season on insults boys!”
I think it all depends on context and wether the person is trying to be mean or condescending. If a person is deaf and I say he’s deaf, I’m not being condescending, I’m simply stating a fact. With all due respect to your opinion, if we follow your logic we will quickly run out of words.
Have you heard the expression “white lies and black truths”? The intent behind “simply stating a fact” can indeed be hurtful.
But I really don’t think we’re going to run out of words. There’s at least a half million in English, and even counting obscure ableist terms, we’re talking about maybe thirty. Pretty small percentage.
Dude, I’m about as left leaning as it gets. The mental illness comments mentioned in the article, sure, that’s kind of problematic. But statements that are literally just expressions that have been used for probably half a century or more like “falling on deaf ears”. Gimme a break. Find something actually a problem to focus on, like the climate crisis, or the Assault on trans rights in the U.S.
Most racist language is intended to offend and minimize others. It doesn’t come from ignorance, just maliciousness.
Most ableist language is based on ignorance of people who are “not able” in some way. Like saying “everyone can do X” when some people are not for various reasons.
People who are affected are trying to tell you it’s not a made up problem. It is your ego and aversion to criticism and personal development that is telling you otherwise.
I’ve got accounts all over the fediverse (in case one instance goes down or some fascist or tankie admin bans me.)
The give away is the fact that they keep bringing up race. They have been called racists, intolerant, bigots and are butt hurt about it so they’re looking for something to throw back at people to make themselves feel better and to use as a bludgeon to silence the people calling them racists, intolerant, bigots, etc.
It was actually two separate points. First, a troll brigade (unrelated to the screen shot.) Second, projection, using the ableism argument to try to make yourselves seem morally superior (illustrated by the protection in the screenshot.)
I’m sorry I confused you. I’ll try to keep each comment to a single, simple idea from now on.
Language changes. We’ve stopped using some expressions because we’ve realized how hurtful they are — the n word, all sorts of slurs related to being LGBTQ2S+, etc. Here’s one more. Doubling down on this is exactly like arguing that you should still be allowed to use the n word because it’s been used as an “expression” for more than half a century.
“If you’re comparing the badness of two words, and you won’t even say one of them? That’s the worse word.”
I admit I didn’t read the article, but I can say that with the phrase in question of “fall on deaf ears”, it’s a complicated situation. The phrase is poetic in nature and I’m hesitant to try and erase this particular phrase from modern day. I have fear that there will be an over correction towards being non offensive and that creativity as a result will suffer. As someone who has a fondness for poetic expression, this feels like a “throwing the baby out with the bath water” type of situation.
But what’s great about this is finding new and creative ways to express yourself! “My points fell on rocky ground” — Biblical allusion. “They believed me as if I were Cassandra” - Greek. “My words fell on them like the sun under an umbrella.” If you want to keep the synecdoche, “Their ears weren’t ready to hear me”. There’s opportunities to be really creative and poetic if you’re interested in language as rhetoric!
Colloquially, nobody will blink at “They refused to listen” or “It was like I was talking to a tree”.
Not even sort of the same thing. The n word is a racist term people use to intimidate people. Falling on deaf ears is an expression used with a specific meaning. Now if it was intended as an intimidation tactic or something to make people fearful for their life or insult them that’d be different. This is neither of those things.
There’s a difference between intent and impact (which is in and of itself a pretty important concept in antiracism). Basically, impact always trumps intent. If I use a phrase that insults someone else, and I said “I didn’t mean it that way, so you shouldn’t feel insulted”… well, that doesn’t work. It’s a pretty privileged position to say that an ableist expression is value neutral. If somebody is saying that a phrase is not okay with them, why argue? What’s the harm in just going, “Okay, I’ll stop using that phrase”? People don’t generally make up words to get offended at, and certainly don’t write articles (multiple articles, multiple books, multiple YouTube videos…) to try to invent outrage unless they’re trying to discredit this topic. If someone says that your language is harmful or discriminatory, what does it cost you to listen to them and to change the words you use?
Yeah, whatever dude. I have more important things to do than worry about phrases such as falling on deaf ears, which is one of the main phrases I take issue with in this waste of time article.
It takes people time to change their minds. Hopefully you run across this debate in different contexts. In fact, try bringing it up with friends and/or family to see how they react!
We all wish you’d fucking act like it and just not post instead of wasting all of our time and being rude and dismissive to people trying to engage with you.
I just don’t get it. If someone tells me that a word or phrase I’m using is offensive, I’m going to apologize and stop using it. Why is this so hard? Why would people double down on wanting to offend others?
People love having someone to feel superior to, that’s all it is. Some want to keep their oppressive language especially when they find out it’s harmful to others.
No, it’s not. You have decided that we aren’t allowed to use word that you find offensive but that you don’t have to not use words that we find offensive. You’re a sanctimonious navel gazer. We’re going to ignore you now.
In an interpersonal (small group or 1 to 1) context, sure, I agree, if you know someone finds something offensive and you keep saying it, you are kinda being a dick (at the least) even if you don’t think you are being offensive.
But beyond that… what you are saying is not is just not practical or reasonable. You can’t realistically stop using every word or phrase that someone somewhere finds offensive.
We live in a time where everyone is offended by everything and everyone defaults to the righteous victim role (and this is not some veiled criticism of the left, the (American) left gets criticized for this all the time, but in my experience the right can be even worse (more easily offended, more fragile, more eager to play the victim, e.g. ‘war on christmas’, ‘christians are an oppressed minority’ and all that bullshit).
My opinion is that you should not change your language because someone else is offended by it. You should listen when someone else is offended, try to understand, and be considerate. If you come to understand that what you said was innapropriate due to that conversation then change your language, but if you don’t agree, don’t change your language just be more considerate around that person because they are sensitive to it.
It’s really not that many words. If you google ableist terms, you’ll find maybe what, ten? I think it’s reasonable to stop using ten words. What you’re saying by refusing to do so is that you don’t think that some people or groups deserve respect.
Nobody is asking you to protest, or to write letters, change your diet, change what you do with your free time, change your job… Just stop using a few words. Hell, I’d be happy if you just considered cutting some words out of your vocabulary. If you’re at least willing to think about it, I think that’s reasonable. :)
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Didn’t someone really waste time writing an article about statements like “falling on deaf ears” being hurtful? There saved everyone a click.
Why is it hard for you to believe? If someone is telling you that the language you’re using is harmful, is your reaction really to say, basically, that you don’t care and you’re going to continue using it?
If you’re offended by the phrase falling on deaf ears, which is very much just an expression, then you need to go outside more. Nobody is trying to offend deaf people with that phrase.
If nobody is trying to be offensive, and deaf people (one of whom wrote the linked article) are saying that using “deaf” in this way is offensive, and you continue to use it because you don’t care… you’re being offensive. Is it really so hard to change the language you use?
Intent is everything and if someone is clearly not using a word with the intent to offend you, you being offended is a YOU problem, not a them problem.
And before you go say shit like able people can’t know how bad it feels.
1, I’m not “abled”.
2. I’ve had people call me these words meaning to offend and hurt me. THAT actually does hurt. These words being used without any intention to hurt or offend anyone, doesn’t matter to me at all.
And sometimes, using those words to offend is perfectly appropriate to express what you want to convey.
Like how many Americans have absolutely retarded levels of overblown reactions with a word like cunt.
Intent is actually not everything. Legally speaking, if I run over a person with a car and they die, I can’t get away with it by saying, “well, I didn’t intend to kill them, so there shouldn’t be a consequence”. The impact of that person’s death is greater. It’s not murder, but it’s still manslaughter.
Ableist language is the same: it still causes harm, but obviously not harm to the body.
Legally speaking, if you didn’t intend to kill them it actually does change the consequences.
In the valid to the discussion case you said something with no intent to harm or insult anyone and you didn’t harm them, they decided you harmed them.
In the case of a car accident, you literally fucking killed someone.
It’s Apples and Oranges, a false equivalence argument that goes straight into the trash.
Both are about impact vs intent. Both are about harm. I’m sorry you can’t see that.
If I accidentally spill hot coffee on you and say that it was an accident, you’re still going to be upset. You’d be more upset if I said I did it on purpose, but let’s not pretend that being offensive accidentally is okay.
There are a lot of two vehicle, or pedestrian, traffic fatalities that don’t result in manslaughter charges.
https://globalnews.ca/news/8973010/man-lying-in-road-hit-car-killed-comox-valley-rcmp/
To date, no charges have been laid.
Intent is huge.
Even if no charges are laid, someone is dead. The intent to kill wasn’t there, but the impact is that someone is dead. It doesn’t matter if a person didn’t mean to kill someone, but again, someone is dead.
This is why impact matters far more than intent. This is an extreme example, but it still applies in all situations. Someone might want to argue their way out of offending someone else, but the damage has already been done.
So, “You aren’t abled”
You are just a smug prick.
Gotcha.
That’s fine but answer the question.
They’re trolls from Hexbear. They like to label us as ableist and bigots because it makes them feel superior.
I have no idea what hexbear even is. I don’t disagree with everything in the article, just think saying phrases like falling in deaf ears, or a dumb decision, is way extreme on the scale of this is problematic language.
A bunch of Hexbear concern trolls cosplaying as social justice warriors.
You’re being deliberately obtuse and wilfully ignorant if that’s what you took from the article.
And not that you care, but it isn’t about offence
So, deaf people say “Please don’t say that,” and you are the smug asshole that says “How the fuck will they know what I say, they’re fucking deaf. Open season on insults boys!”
No, I’m saying there is nuance to phrases like this. There are multiple meanings to the word deaf. Jesus, it’s like talking to a brick wall sometimes.
Go back to Hexbear.
I think it all depends on context and wether the person is trying to be mean or condescending. If a person is deaf and I say he’s deaf, I’m not being condescending, I’m simply stating a fact. With all due respect to your opinion, if we follow your logic we will quickly run out of words.
Have you heard the expression “white lies and black truths”? The intent behind “simply stating a fact” can indeed be hurtful.
But I really don’t think we’re going to run out of words. There’s at least a half million in English, and even counting obscure ableist terms, we’re talking about maybe thirty. Pretty small percentage.
That’s exactly the mentality they have.
Any thought that goes contrary to them being perfect turns them into petulant brats that allow them to justify having a hissy fit against the left.
Dude, I’m about as left leaning as it gets. The mental illness comments mentioned in the article, sure, that’s kind of problematic. But statements that are literally just expressions that have been used for probably half a century or more like “falling on deaf ears”. Gimme a break. Find something actually a problem to focus on, like the climate crisis, or the Assault on trans rights in the U.S.
not proudly flaunting ableism and refusing to listen to people with the actual lived experience, the way you are, you’re not.
in other words: fuck disabled people
Yeah, definitely didn’t say ‘fuck disabled people’. This is literally a made up problem.
Is using racist language a “made-up problem”? If not, how is racist language different from ableist language?
Most racist language is intended to offend and minimize others. It doesn’t come from ignorance, just maliciousness.
Most ableist language is based on ignorance of people who are “not able” in some way. Like saying “everyone can do X” when some people are not for various reasons.
Yeah, you think it’s a made up problem.
Gotcha.
People who are affected are trying to tell you it’s not a made up problem. It is your ego and aversion to criticism and personal development that is telling you otherwise.
They’re trolls from Hexbear. They like to label us as ableist and bigots because it makes them feel superior.
Maybe they have alts on hexbear, but these people are from kbin.social and lemmy.ca, so.
I’ve got accounts all over the fediverse (in case one instance goes down or some fascist or tankie admin bans me.)
The give away is the fact that they keep bringing up race. They have been called racists, intolerant, bigots and are butt hurt about it so they’re looking for something to throw back at people to make themselves feel better and to use as a bludgeon to silence the people calling them racists, intolerant, bigots, etc.
It’s concern trolling. Don’t take them seriously.
“They’re from an instance I don’t like!!!1!”
… Shows screenshot proving they’re not
It was actually two separate points. First, a troll brigade (unrelated to the screen shot.) Second, projection, using the ableism argument to try to make yourselves seem morally superior (illustrated by the protection in the screenshot.)
I’m sorry I confused you. I’ll try to keep each comment to a single, simple idea from now on.
You literally said “they” were from hexbear and then “they” in the next sentence. Use proper English if you don’t want to imply what you implied
“They”, as in the three or four members of the brigade. Or, the gender neutral “they”, whatever.
I was actually referring to multiple people. Not everything is about you.
Language changes. We’ve stopped using some expressions because we’ve realized how hurtful they are — the n word, all sorts of slurs related to being LGBTQ2S+, etc. Here’s one more. Doubling down on this is exactly like arguing that you should still be allowed to use the n word because it’s been used as an “expression” for more than half a century.
“If you’re comparing the badness of two words, and you won’t even say one of them? That’s the worse word.”
I admit I didn’t read the article, but I can say that with the phrase in question of “fall on deaf ears”, it’s a complicated situation. The phrase is poetic in nature and I’m hesitant to try and erase this particular phrase from modern day. I have fear that there will be an over correction towards being non offensive and that creativity as a result will suffer. As someone who has a fondness for poetic expression, this feels like a “throwing the baby out with the bath water” type of situation.
But what’s great about this is finding new and creative ways to express yourself! “My points fell on rocky ground” — Biblical allusion. “They believed me as if I were Cassandra” - Greek. “My words fell on them like the sun under an umbrella.” If you want to keep the synecdoche, “Their ears weren’t ready to hear me”. There’s opportunities to be really creative and poetic if you’re interested in language as rhetoric!
Colloquially, nobody will blink at “They refused to listen” or “It was like I was talking to a tree”.
Not even sort of the same thing. The n word is a racist term people use to intimidate people. Falling on deaf ears is an expression used with a specific meaning. Now if it was intended as an intimidation tactic or something to make people fearful for their life or insult them that’d be different. This is neither of those things.
There’s a difference between intent and impact (which is in and of itself a pretty important concept in antiracism). Basically, impact always trumps intent. If I use a phrase that insults someone else, and I said “I didn’t mean it that way, so you shouldn’t feel insulted”… well, that doesn’t work. It’s a pretty privileged position to say that an ableist expression is value neutral. If somebody is saying that a phrase is not okay with them, why argue? What’s the harm in just going, “Okay, I’ll stop using that phrase”? People don’t generally make up words to get offended at, and certainly don’t write articles (multiple articles, multiple books, multiple YouTube videos…) to try to invent outrage unless they’re trying to discredit this topic. If someone says that your language is harmful or discriminatory, what does it cost you to listen to them and to change the words you use?
Yeah, whatever dude. I have more important things to do than worry about phrases such as falling on deaf ears, which is one of the main phrases I take issue with in this waste of time article.
It takes people time to change their minds. Hopefully you run across this debate in different contexts. In fact, try bringing it up with friends and/or family to see how they react!
We all wish you’d fucking act like it and just not post instead of wasting all of our time and being rude and dismissive to people trying to engage with you.
I just don’t get it. If someone tells me that a word or phrase I’m using is offensive, I’m going to apologize and stop using it. Why is this so hard? Why would people double down on wanting to offend others?
People love having someone to feel superior to, that’s all it is. Some want to keep their oppressive language especially when they find out it’s harmful to others.
How is the phrase falling on deaf ears oppressive. Am I living in opposite world now where that’s a slur people use to try to intimidate someone?
They’re trolls from Hexbear. They like to label us as ableist and bigots because it makes them feel superior.
I find the word “ableist” offensive. Also the words, “it” and “this”.
So you’re openly a bigot, really something to be proud of. 🙄🙄
You’re a sanctimonious child.
How many fucking accounts do you have that I need to block.
This one?
I don’t care if you block me. Just do it and shut up.
deleted by creator
This is a shitty take. Have more respect instead of trying to dismiss people with shitty quips.
No, it’s not. You have decided that we aren’t allowed to use word that you find offensive but that you don’t have to not use words that we find offensive. You’re a sanctimonious navel gazer. We’re going to ignore you now.
You sure???
Yes.
In an interpersonal (small group or 1 to 1) context, sure, I agree, if you know someone finds something offensive and you keep saying it, you are kinda being a dick (at the least) even if you don’t think you are being offensive.
But beyond that… what you are saying is not is just not practical or reasonable. You can’t realistically stop using every word or phrase that someone somewhere finds offensive.
We live in a time where everyone is offended by everything and everyone defaults to the righteous victim role (and this is not some veiled criticism of the left, the (American) left gets criticized for this all the time, but in my experience the right can be even worse (more easily offended, more fragile, more eager to play the victim, e.g. ‘war on christmas’, ‘christians are an oppressed minority’ and all that bullshit).
My opinion is that you should not change your language because someone else is offended by it. You should listen when someone else is offended, try to understand, and be considerate. If you come to understand that what you said was innapropriate due to that conversation then change your language, but if you don’t agree, don’t change your language just be more considerate around that person because they are sensitive to it.
It’s really not that many words. If you google ableist terms, you’ll find maybe what, ten? I think it’s reasonable to stop using ten words. What you’re saying by refusing to do so is that you don’t think that some people or groups deserve respect.
Nobody is asking you to protest, or to write letters, change your diet, change what you do with your free time, change your job… Just stop using a few words. Hell, I’d be happy if you just considered cutting some words out of your vocabulary. If you’re at least willing to think about it, I think that’s reasonable. :)
It’s ableists like you who are why articles like this are needed.
Go back to Hexbear.