The issue is that we had 500k subs on Reddit. That sounds like a lot, but in reality it equates to about a dozen posts a day, maybe less.
Over here on Kbin, we almost have 100 subs - and I’m really proud of that! - but 100 subs is basically nothing. A fraction of a percent of people are actually content contributors, and the whole community rests on them. Then combine that with the fact that we’re a niche subject (not some general thing like “video games”) and that impacts what can be contributed.
On top of that, the magazine is fairly empty. Not barren - we have a few posts - but it certainly looks and feels empty. And because it’s empty, nobody wants to post, which means it stays empty.
Compare that to Reddit, which has a very dedicated community for us. Not a massive community, but certainly a passionate one. We care about our community; we’ve stewarded it for years. All of us mods started out as members of that community (the subreddit founder is long gone), and we’re all unpaid volunteers that want to keep that community healthy.
Reddit threatened to take it from us and give it to another mod team for a related Disney subreddit that played along with the admins. The issue is that multiple Disney subreddits have, uh, issues with those mods (which has been the case for years to the point where explaining the history is part of onboarding for a lot of Disney mods).
So the issue was reframed - either we reopen our sub on our terms… or we stick to our guns, force Reddit to remove us, and get replaced by a different mod team. This other team is known to be harsh about banning users for any kind of dissent, they abuse their mod powers to spread anti-vax nonsense all over their “non-political” subreddit, they have multiple subreddit drama threads talking about their actions, they’ve been gunning for all of the Disney subs for years… and they’d immediately jump at the chance to reopen the subreddit we’ve worked hard on so they could run it their way.
When you look at it like that… there’s only one real choice. I hate Reddit, but our community doesn’t deserve that.
I realize saying “we choose to keep our powers for your own good” makes me sound like, oh, I dunno, “landed gentry”… but users don’t see that side of moderation or Reddit drama, and frankly they shouldn’t have to.
So we opened and are taking the abuse. Users are torn between “you caved, scabs” and “told you this was a useless gesture, how dare you take my sub away”. Neither one is great.
But there’s more to it than what appears on the surface, and frankly that’s true across a lot of subs.
It sounds like that you are just not interested in building a new community and rather go back to the ivory tower that is reddit.
If that is so just say it.
What are you gonna do when Reddit is gonna implement the next thing that would be unbeneficial to the community?
If you know that the possible new mods are asses, why not call reddits bluff?
Let them see what good moderation is about and what happens when you don’t care about the good moderators for years.
You are probably afraid that a new mod team would do just a good a job as you and you will be forgotten after a day. Then of course what would be all this for if change wouldn’t happen? Other questions you are asking yourself can entice; Is my moderation position really that hard to take over? Are the changes really affecting me?
You are probably afraid losing something that you put your own time and effort in and the idea that someone would ruin it or just take your place is a situation you are not ready for. I would understand all that but then why black out at all? Rigorous changes after 48 hours only happen in Disney movies, you should know that.
Sorry to say but most of the community does not give a damn about moderators and you know it. They care about the content that is provided to them that is what they are hooked on.
This only shows that Reddit has full control over you and your actions and they can do whatever they want to whomever they want because you will bulge the first second they threaten to take your moderations position away.
For the life of me I cannot understand why people would gladly be providing money in Reddits pockets, while the community and moderators don’t see a penny, don’t see any user improvements, get constantly lied to, while getting bend over on every turn.
I am gonna say this again; I thought moderators actually got paid by reddit. I was baffled when I heard a few days ago they weren’t. I thought and still think it would be absolutely ridiculous to invest your time and efforts for a profit making company for absolutely nothing in return.
In the meantime Steve huffman is spitting in your and the communities face every step of the way, not caring about you or the community at all.
I have a whole lot of respect to the people who gave up their mod positions just to make a stand for themselves.
I really don’t mind if subs stay open, if you like to moderate be my guest. If you don’t agree with the blackout, sure.
But the posturing about the greater good for the community, just don’t.
It sounds like that you are just not interested in building a new community and rather go back to the ivory tower that is reddit.
If we weren’t interested, we wouldn’t have founded the community. We’re now maintaining two. The Disneyland subreddit links to Kbin in its sidebar. While I’d agree that Reddit is somewhat of an ivory tower, bear in mind that it’s a community we’ve cultivated for years and we have a sense of responsibility for them.
What are you gonna do when Reddit is gonna implement the next thing that would be unbeneficial to the community?
Link here, like we already are. We’ve never participated in “Reddit drama”. The fact that we took a stand as-is was a big step for us. We even committed to “indefinite”, not just 48 hours. It wasn’t effective, and we caved after 110 hours or so. Lessons learned.
But when (not if) Reddit shoots itself in the foot, we can have a community here ready for them. Right now it’s small. To a certain extent, that’s positive… the mod tools on Kbin are lacking. But it’s not like we’re abandoning the community here.
Spez is taking inspiration from Elon. He’s going to do more dumb things. He’s already talked about the dumb things he wants to do. There’ll be other waves of migration, and we want to make sure that anyone who still wants the space they had (but doesn’t want to use Reddit) can have a home.
If you know that the possible new mods are asses, why not call reddits bluff?
Do you think Reddit cares about asshole mod teams? Honestly. Remember, the “new mods” already run a major Disney subreddit. If Reddit cared about them being assholes who regularly wind up on SubredditDrama they would have taken action already.
Also bear in mind that I am one person on a team. There are others who work alongside me that have voices which should be heard and respected. To that extent, a lot of them didn’t want to even risk it. I don’t have the authority (by design) to unilaterally override them.
Sorry to say but most of the community does not give a damn about moderators.
…
I thought and still think it would be absolutely ridiculous to invest your time and efforts for a profit making company for absolutely nothing in return.
Absolutely correct. We’re the unpaid jannies, the suckers who need to touch grass. That’s not sarcasm, btw - I really do think that. It’s absolutely ridiculous that we do it at all, especially given the amount of abuse we get from… well, basically everyone.
Spez doesn’t care about our users. We know that. Frankly, there are a lot of places on the internet that are run or controlled by those who don’t care about others.
So spaces that do care are important. You can call it posturing, but it’s the truth. If we didn’t care, we would’ve quit a decade ago.
We care about making our community a welcoming space, a little home on the internet. We care about stopping trolls that see the word “Disney” and want to cause as much damage as possible.
It is absolutely ridiculous to care. Because you’re right - the site doesn’t care. We are giving them value and expecting nothing. They depend on us to care, and they treat us any way they want because they know we’re too goddamn soft to let harm come to the communities we try and protect.
But there are people who need these little rest stops. They need a place to post a picture of their Mickey Mouse balloon, or their engagement photo in front of the castle, or their debate about what on earth the writing on some poster says. It makes them happy and there’s a whole blossoming community there, of happy people in a safe space.
What on earth do I even get out of my “posturing” otherwise? A stupid green badge that says “please yell at me?” I don’t even get that badge outside of my sub. I’m not a powermod; /r/Disneyland is the only major sub I mod. The only others I run are teeny tiny, maybe 600 users. We’re not a Reddit partner community that gets wined and dined.
We’re just some stupid, terminally-online folks who need to touch grass. Doing unpaid labor for an abusive place that doesn’t care, promoting a different abusive monopoly of a company that doesn’t care. All to make some little virtual people on the other side of a box (who also hate us) happy.
You’re doing great. I’m not on your subreddit, but you don’t deserve people piling on here. Thanks for everything you do, and I hope this transition doesn’t cause you too many gray hairs :)
EnglishMobster explained, that for them, it is still about supporting the community they’ve built there, and it is still tenable to continue with that. You’re response is to exaggerate the current Reddit threat, and get shirty at EnglishMobster. BlackCoffee, you show no consideration for an opinion outide your viewpoint, only recalcitrance.
If these subreddits all had a sticky thread linking to their new magazines/communities on other platforms, then it would help them grow.
But they don’t. They just make a copy/paste post about reddit killing 3rd party apps and “go use alternatives”, most people need directly linking to them with a simple description of how they work.
Could you add something on the post submission page suggesting that folks also submit their content to your kbin community? Maybe don’t push to completely move, just suggest that content submissions go to both places for now.
The r/piracy sub is an outlier IMO, it tends to attract a particular tech-savvy niche that isn’t afraid to try new things…
I don’t think the same can be said for the Disneyland subreddit where I feel the users would struggle to understand the concept and appeal of a federated Reddit-like alternative.
All that said, I do agree with the “More will come” - reddit’s actions have brought a massive influx of users to lemmy.world and sh.itjust.works
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And give up their power as mods of a large subreddit and starting again from scratch? Most of them probably aren’t willing to do that.
I’m a mod of /r/Disneyland, and we recreated our sub over here on Kbin ( @Disneyland, https://kbin.social/m/Disneyland).
The issue is that we had 500k subs on Reddit. That sounds like a lot, but in reality it equates to about a dozen posts a day, maybe less.
Over here on Kbin, we almost have 100 subs - and I’m really proud of that! - but 100 subs is basically nothing. A fraction of a percent of people are actually content contributors, and the whole community rests on them. Then combine that with the fact that we’re a niche subject (not some general thing like “video games”) and that impacts what can be contributed.
On top of that, the magazine is fairly empty. Not barren - we have a few posts - but it certainly looks and feels empty. And because it’s empty, nobody wants to post, which means it stays empty.
Compare that to Reddit, which has a very dedicated community for us. Not a massive community, but certainly a passionate one. We care about our community; we’ve stewarded it for years. All of us mods started out as members of that community (the subreddit founder is long gone), and we’re all unpaid volunteers that want to keep that community healthy.
Reddit threatened to take it from us and give it to another mod team for a related Disney subreddit that played along with the admins. The issue is that multiple Disney subreddits have, uh, issues with those mods (which has been the case for years to the point where explaining the history is part of onboarding for a lot of Disney mods).
So the issue was reframed - either we reopen our sub on our terms… or we stick to our guns, force Reddit to remove us, and get replaced by a different mod team. This other team is known to be harsh about banning users for any kind of dissent, they abuse their mod powers to spread anti-vax nonsense all over their “non-political” subreddit, they have multiple subreddit drama threads talking about their actions, they’ve been gunning for all of the Disney subs for years… and they’d immediately jump at the chance to reopen the subreddit we’ve worked hard on so they could run it their way.
When you look at it like that… there’s only one real choice. I hate Reddit, but our community doesn’t deserve that.
I realize saying “we choose to keep our powers for your own good” makes me sound like, oh, I dunno, “landed gentry”… but users don’t see that side of moderation or Reddit drama, and frankly they shouldn’t have to.
So we opened and are taking the abuse. Users are torn between “you caved, scabs” and “told you this was a useless gesture, how dare you take my sub away”. Neither one is great.
But there’s more to it than what appears on the surface, and frankly that’s true across a lot of subs.
I do not understand these posts at all.
It sounds like that you are just not interested in building a new community and rather go back to the ivory tower that is reddit.
If that is so just say it.
What are you gonna do when Reddit is gonna implement the next thing that would be unbeneficial to the community?
If you know that the possible new mods are asses, why not call reddits bluff?
Let them see what good moderation is about and what happens when you don’t care about the good moderators for years.
You are probably afraid that a new mod team would do just a good a job as you and you will be forgotten after a day. Then of course what would be all this for if change wouldn’t happen? Other questions you are asking yourself can entice; Is my moderation position really that hard to take over? Are the changes really affecting me?
You are probably afraid losing something that you put your own time and effort in and the idea that someone would ruin it or just take your place is a situation you are not ready for. I would understand all that but then why black out at all? Rigorous changes after 48 hours only happen in Disney movies, you should know that.
Sorry to say but most of the community does not give a damn about moderators and you know it. They care about the content that is provided to them that is what they are hooked on.
This only shows that Reddit has full control over you and your actions and they can do whatever they want to whomever they want because you will bulge the first second they threaten to take your moderations position away.
For the life of me I cannot understand why people would gladly be providing money in Reddits pockets, while the community and moderators don’t see a penny, don’t see any user improvements, get constantly lied to, while getting bend over on every turn.
I am gonna say this again; I thought moderators actually got paid by reddit. I was baffled when I heard a few days ago they weren’t. I thought and still think it would be absolutely ridiculous to invest your time and efforts for a profit making company for absolutely nothing in return.
In the meantime Steve huffman is spitting in your and the communities face every step of the way, not caring about you or the community at all.
I have a whole lot of respect to the people who gave up their mod positions just to make a stand for themselves.
I really don’t mind if subs stay open, if you like to moderate be my guest. If you don’t agree with the blackout, sure.
But the posturing about the greater good for the community, just don’t.
Alright, one point at a time:
If we weren’t interested, we wouldn’t have founded the community. We’re now maintaining two. The Disneyland subreddit links to Kbin in its sidebar. While I’d agree that Reddit is somewhat of an ivory tower, bear in mind that it’s a community we’ve cultivated for years and we have a sense of responsibility for them.
Link here, like we already are. We’ve never participated in “Reddit drama”. The fact that we took a stand as-is was a big step for us. We even committed to “indefinite”, not just 48 hours. It wasn’t effective, and we caved after 110 hours or so. Lessons learned.
But when (not if) Reddit shoots itself in the foot, we can have a community here ready for them. Right now it’s small. To a certain extent, that’s positive… the mod tools on Kbin are lacking. But it’s not like we’re abandoning the community here.
Spez is taking inspiration from Elon. He’s going to do more dumb things. He’s already talked about the dumb things he wants to do. There’ll be other waves of migration, and we want to make sure that anyone who still wants the space they had (but doesn’t want to use Reddit) can have a home.
Do you think Reddit cares about asshole mod teams? Honestly. Remember, the “new mods” already run a major Disney subreddit. If Reddit cared about them being assholes who regularly wind up on SubredditDrama they would have taken action already.
Also bear in mind that I am one person on a team. There are others who work alongside me that have voices which should be heard and respected. To that extent, a lot of them didn’t want to even risk it. I don’t have the authority (by design) to unilaterally override them.
Absolutely correct. We’re the unpaid jannies, the suckers who need to touch grass. That’s not sarcasm, btw - I really do think that. It’s absolutely ridiculous that we do it at all, especially given the amount of abuse we get from… well, basically everyone.
Spez doesn’t care about our users. We know that. Frankly, there are a lot of places on the internet that are run or controlled by those who don’t care about others.
So spaces that do care are important. You can call it posturing, but it’s the truth. If we didn’t care, we would’ve quit a decade ago.
We care about making our community a welcoming space, a little home on the internet. We care about stopping trolls that see the word “Disney” and want to cause as much damage as possible.
It is absolutely ridiculous to care. Because you’re right - the site doesn’t care. We are giving them value and expecting nothing. They depend on us to care, and they treat us any way they want because they know we’re too goddamn soft to let harm come to the communities we try and protect.
But there are people who need these little rest stops. They need a place to post a picture of their Mickey Mouse balloon, or their engagement photo in front of the castle, or their debate about what on earth the writing on some poster says. It makes them happy and there’s a whole blossoming community there, of happy people in a safe space.
What on earth do I even get out of my “posturing” otherwise? A stupid green badge that says “please yell at me?” I don’t even get that badge outside of my sub. I’m not a powermod; /r/Disneyland is the only major sub I mod. The only others I run are teeny tiny, maybe 600 users. We’re not a Reddit partner community that gets wined and dined.
We’re just some stupid, terminally-online folks who need to touch grass. Doing unpaid labor for an abusive place that doesn’t care, promoting a different abusive monopoly of a company that doesn’t care. All to make some little virtual people on the other side of a box (who also hate us) happy.
You’re doing great. I’m not on your subreddit, but you don’t deserve people piling on here. Thanks for everything you do, and I hope this transition doesn’t cause you too many gray hairs :)
EnglishMobster explained, that for them, it is still about supporting the community they’ve built there, and it is still tenable to continue with that. You’re response is to exaggerate the current Reddit threat, and get shirty at EnglishMobster. BlackCoffee, you show no consideration for an opinion outide your viewpoint, only recalcitrance.
Do you have any plans to start redirecting users to your new spot, while keeping the subreddit open?
If these subreddits all had a sticky thread linking to their new magazines/communities on other platforms, then it would help them grow.
But they don’t. They just make a copy/paste post about reddit killing 3rd party apps and “go use alternatives”, most people need directly linking to them with a simple description of how they work.
We do have a sticky thread that mentions our Kbin community at the very top.
It’s also at the top of our sidebar, above the rules.
Could you add something on the post submission page suggesting that folks also submit their content to your kbin community? Maybe don’t push to completely move, just suggest that content submissions go to both places for now.
See how many users r/piracy have already brought here. More will come
The r/piracy sub is an outlier IMO, it tends to attract a particular tech-savvy niche that isn’t afraid to try new things…
I don’t think the same can be said for the Disneyland subreddit where I feel the users would struggle to understand the concept and appeal of a federated Reddit-like alternative.
All that said, I do agree with the “More will come” - reddit’s actions have brought a massive influx of users to lemmy.world and sh.itjust.works