50+ years ago when I was 12, I got my first job at an ice cream/burger stand making 0.75 cents per hour. The only downside was my creepy old boss who took great joy in pinching my non-existent breasts and child-sized ass.
2 yrs later I started working at the local pizza joint (legal age to work was 14 back then).
The real problem these days is owners who would abuse the privilege of having kids work for them. I mean you just know that’s gonna happen, esp under Shmoe’s ‘leadership’.
That is fucked, but I think workers of all ages can be exploited. In my case, working a few different jobs from age 13 to 15 alerted me early to the exploitative behaviour of employers, and I’ve been very diligent in asserting my federal, state, and contractual rights in employment ever since, and to help and insist that co-workers do too.
In fact, I think this lesson is best learned by child workers, because at that age, the value of the lesson is high, and the potential stakes of asserting ones rights are low, EG as a child, if the child is sacked for asserting their rights, they only lose their pocket money. As an adult out in the wild, this could mean risking their income which pays for rent, family, bills, and other critical expenses.
I think you forget that women and children still don’t have enough power, at any age, to deny any man what he wants. They still die doing that, or are beaten within an inch of their lives, or are fired/written up for refusing sexual advances, or are put in situations where they’ve received no training but have to run a dangerous machine anyway.
That is not something any child should ‘have’ to learn.
How about instead we crack down on the businesses that do shit like that … maybe 1st offense they lose their business … 2nd offense they lose their life.
I was cutting grass at 12 years old on the weekends during school year and then summer time washed cars and cut grass. Only did it until I was 14, where I got a part-time job as a bagger and cart pusher at a grocery store. Don’t see a problem with it.
do they also get paid at the same standard(minimum wage, benefit, etc) like other worker?
do they also get CPP/EI contribution from employer? And can they take EI benefit when laid off?
do they also get to contribute to RRSP/TFSA? TFSA is after 18 currently, so they can’t even save their wage compare to other adult workers.
when they do perform well, will they get evaluated and promoted the same way? ie, a 15 yo manager at fast food chain and paid the same wage as a manager.
I started working at 14 (in Ontario). For my first job:
No, there is a “student wage” that is less than minimum wage
EI yes, CPP no
No
Only if there are promotions available at the part-time level (my “promotion” increased my pay by $0.50)
After 2 years of working there, I got a $0.05 raise. Yes, 5 cents. The biggest increase in my pay came when the minimum wage was increased in Ontario, which also increased the student wage.
I would have, but my first minimum wage-type job was after high school. I didn’t make enough to pay into CPP, but I don’t know if that’s a universal truth for younger workers or just because I didn’t work more than 10 hours a week.
Also fun fact, going back go my original comment about wage: Saskatchewan’s October increase to its general minimum wage won’t catch up to Ontario’s current student wage. Things are cheaper here, yes, but things aren’t (much if any) cheaper in Saskatoon or Regina than in London.
Is Regina at least better to live in? London is the armpit of Ontario. I hated it there, lol. But there is an excellent shawarma place near the college (Hadi’s).
Edit: Just found out Hadi’s is closed and there’s a new shawarma place there now. :( Hope Hadi is doing well.
I’m probably not the best person to ask. I’ve never lived in Regina, but from visiting it’s similar to Saskatoon, except it has a man-made lake instead of a nice river valley. It’s a nice enough city, but it’s also clearly a government town. As for London, I’ve never been. I have family there, and part of my family moved to Saskatchewan from London over 100 years ago.
Let kids focus on their studies. We need a better educated population, not one where people are trained to work mindless jobs where corporations pay you the least amount possible.
Work is a practical teacher of the value of money, how to work together with people, and how to deal with an actual meaningful authority structure.
School has no way to teach the first, does not realistically teach the second, and makes any lessons with respect to the third meaningless between “no kid left behind”, the countless second chance opportunities given for breaking rules, and the fact that there’s no effective punishments offered for breaking rules.
I think many issues with young people (including my age and a little older) is that a lot of them don’t work until after highschool and have massive struggles with the transition of both having to work and being treated as an adult at the same time.
Um … you want permanent punishments for 13 year olds? That is sick, my friend. Do jobs teach teamwork better than ice hockey or D&D? That is a claim you could make, but maybe we don’t believe you. Remember, life is long, and expecting kids to learn adult lessons is at odds with psychology and reality.
High schools get jobs and learn that the assistant manager is always an asshole. Useful to know. But there’s no rush to figure it out, is there?
Between all the progressive ideals that have been forced down our throats over the past few decades and it becoming socially unacceptable to do things like smoke and drink at work, I’d say we work in some of least toxic work cultures to date.
Toxic work culture also means dishonest management expectations, wage theft, and generally anti-employee policies.
For example, around 2-3 years ago I heard a fun story about why my old employer lost 3/4 of their IT team(MSP, their product was IT folks). The straw that broke the camel’s back was a management partner asking an employee “are you letting your family get in the way of your job?” This was because they couldn’t get this person to work overtime on the spot because they weren’t going to leave their kid’s sports game.
At that same employer, about 7 years ago, I was told I would have to start my day at the customer’s job site at or before 8AM, and I wouldn’t be compensated for my travel time because “everyone has a commute, buddy”. Problem was, my customers were often over an hour away, and they were going to bill the customer for my travel time anyway.
There’s certainly still toxic work cultures, and while I am glad you seemingly haven’t had to experience it as much recently, you shouldn’t discount other’s struggles just because you aren’t experiencing the same thing.
Too young for the concept of doing work in exchange for something? No, I don’t think so. There’s no minimum age to learn how to do something, for the most part, if the interest is there.
However, those lower-wage jobs tend to be where a lot of the worker rights abuse tends to happen, and I absolutely think it’s way too young for them to realize if/when it’s happening, or to be in a position to properly defend themselves if they do. Sure, parental guidance and all, but let’s say my experience working with all kinds of parents in day camps, as a ski instructor and in elementary schools, didn’t make me very optimistic about a lot of them really being in a position to protect their children at work.
I’ve also honestly yet to really see it happening where it has 0 impact on their schooling, but that’s rather anecdotal…
Canada’s provincial and territorial governments are responsible for education. They follow government standards to ensure high quality public education across the country. School is mandatory for children from about the age of six years old to 18 years old. Our study environments are safe and welcoming.
I was working summer jobs doing farm labour since before I was a teenager (and I’m not that old), so I’m gonna say that it’s fine that 13 year olds are working.
I worked at a farm around 12-13 saved enough to quit and buy my first computer, it was awesome. Then 13-14 working at a convienence store. I don’t see an issue working, you learn the actual value of time and money without ma and pa paying for everything. By very early 20s, I owned my own house, cars, motorcycles etc. Kids going from only school life to full time career have a terrible time adjusting to whar that life change is
You say no issues while ignoring the exploitation angle, which is historical fact. But even if it weren’t, are we so pathetic that our society somehow needs these kids to work instead of being kids? Really? We can’t do any better?
What exploitation angle? I was paid the same minimum wage an adult would get. And as a kid that spent tons of time outdoors with friends, exploring nature, kayaking etc, it really didn’t cut into that, as you were done your shift and still had 5-6 hours of daylight to enjoy the summer. If I wasn’t working I would have wasted that time warching rerun cartoons, you can only swim so much in the pool so much before your skin prunes. lol
Right. Please research child labor exploitation and you will understand. It’s clearly documented. Just because you were lucky doesn’t mean others were, or will be.
Oh, I know it happens in places, as forced labour, or poor families needing children to work. But I see it as a bonus if your are just a willing participant and paid the equivalent wages. And other countries people have gone into their tradeschool by 16. NA has a delayed entry into real life
If you want to suggest that 16 is a great age to allow people to start work, I don’t think you’re going to find much resistance. That’s true in the United States, and much of the world, as you remarked. But 13 is nowhere close to 16, so that’s where you’re seeing resistance here.
Another point that I thought it was obvious, but perhaps it isn’t, is how easy it is for older coworkers and bosses to manipulate children. Kids don’t have the experience, and they don’t have the experience or composure necessary to reliably walk away from bad work environments. So then, is there some totally necessary societal function that we desperately need young teenagers to feel? If there’s not, why don’t we take the risk off of them.
And finally we have to come back to the elephant in the room. In reality, people who propose allowing children to work are doing so because they don’t want to pay adults more.
And again I think it’s obvious, but maybe it’s not so obvious to others, that if the goal is to give kids a variety of experiences then there are plenty of great ways to do so. Sports, music, school, volunteering, extracurriculars, you name it. Structured environments with proper supervision, managed by people who care about the safety of those kids, and aren’t going to try to make a buck by mistreating them.
All good points, thanks for presenting them. My kids did the sport and volunteer route too, two of them chose to work after graduating highschool, but the other two chose to start early one at 11 delivering papers and the other at 13. They were both open and would alert us if any exploitation was happening, but I recognize some kids may not have the skills. My one daughter found working very enjoyable, a sense of purpose and earning their own paycheck. Annecdotally it set her ahead in life, at 20 she had saved enough and was able to buy an apartment in metro Vancouver…if you know prices here you can see how that is a huge achievement, she still had time for school, friends, movies and sports. For myself I would find that too busy, but some people enjoy it.
I also had to do farm labour (picking fruit) before I was legally allowed to work at 14. I was taken advantage of (financially) that whole summer - underpaid, and occasionally worked an entire day and got stiffed outright. I’ve never stopped working since then (I’m in my early 50s), aside from a few months of unemployment between jobs that was more stressful than working. I’ll likely have to work until I die.
Fuck that shit.
My kids are 18 and 20 and as long as they’re in school, it can stay that way. Once you start, you don’t stop. I’ll let them enjoy it as long as they can.
Kids already worked in the mines when they were 5 or 6. We should regress to these great time so that the GDP can continue to grow, and shitty employers can continue to pay poverty wages.
I was working summer jobs doing farm labour since before I was a teenager (and I’m not that old), so I’m gonna say that it’s fine that 13 year olds are working.
So, based on your summertime work, it’s okay for kids to work year-round?
this doesn’t make a lick of sense. I know 16 year olds who WANT to work and can’t even find jobs because of the foreign temp workers/international students. Saskatchewan wants to allow 13 year olds? why? there’s literally no point. A business that is already more than willing to take advantage of a potential employee is still going to favor some “student” from India over a 13 year old Canadian kid. you can take more advantage of the Indian kid as opposed to the 13 year old Kid.
“We clearly haven’t made the working class desperate enough yet. Let’s have immigrants and students fight over jobs to make everything even nastier!”
I’m sure this won’t in any way result in a huge cohort of angry underemployed young people. No siree.
I’m also starting to think that businesspeople aren’t the Galtian ubermenchen that they think they are, given that they by and large can’t plan more than six months in advance.
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C’mon! Those are rookie numbers! Look at these kids living their best life and getting the best experiences; not a screen in sight!
https://www.eatstayplaybeaufort.com/youve-probably-seen-this-photo-but-do-you-know-the-story-behind-it/
“labour shortage”
When adults are sick and tired of being paid peanuts to work a back breaking 40 to 50 hour job.
Corporations: So why not look to children who are too inexperienced to understand how much their labour is really worth…?
Is 13 to young to work? Is 65 too early to retire? Are you spending too much time on hobbies?
I want to leave this planet.
Isn’t a baby playing with blocks them showing their want to work?
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50+ years ago when I was 12, I got my first job at an ice cream/burger stand making 0.75 cents per hour. The only downside was my creepy old boss who took great joy in pinching my non-existent breasts and child-sized ass.
2 yrs later I started working at the local pizza joint (legal age to work was 14 back then).
The real problem these days is owners who would abuse the privilege of having kids work for them. I mean you just know that’s gonna happen, esp under Shmoe’s ‘leadership’.
That is fucked, but I think workers of all ages can be exploited. In my case, working a few different jobs from age 13 to 15 alerted me early to the exploitative behaviour of employers, and I’ve been very diligent in asserting my federal, state, and contractual rights in employment ever since, and to help and insist that co-workers do too.
In fact, I think this lesson is best learned by child workers, because at that age, the value of the lesson is high, and the potential stakes of asserting ones rights are low, EG as a child, if the child is sacked for asserting their rights, they only lose their pocket money. As an adult out in the wild, this could mean risking their income which pays for rent, family, bills, and other critical expenses.
I think you forget that women and children still don’t have enough power, at any age, to deny any man what he wants. They still die doing that, or are beaten within an inch of their lives, or are fired/written up for refusing sexual advances, or are put in situations where they’ve received no training but have to run a dangerous machine anyway.
That is not something any child should ‘have’ to learn.
How about instead we crack down on the businesses that do shit like that … maybe 1st offense they lose their business … 2nd offense they lose their life.
The children yearn for the mines
Builds character and healths issues
Look guys Canada is doing America again
Why would these little turds NOT make daddy some mother fucking money tho?
I delivered the newspaper when I was 13. Is that such an alien idea? I used the money to buy my first computer.
If you got everything gifted your family that would be an alien idea.
Tbh though I think that times have changed, now it seems there is a massive surplus of workers for every position.
I was cutting grass at 12 years old on the weekends during school year and then summer time washed cars and cut grass. Only did it until I was 14, where I got a part-time job as a bagger and cart pusher at a grocery store. Don’t see a problem with it.
Edit: I’m from the U.S. though.
okay, let me ask the real question:
I started working at 14 (in Ontario). For my first job:
After 2 years of working there, I got a $0.05 raise. Yes, 5 cents. The biggest increase in my pay came when the minimum wage was increased in Ontario, which also increased the student wage.
Since this post is about Saskatchewan, I’ll add that Saskatchewan doesn’t have a student wage, just one minimum wage.
It also happens to be about $1.20 less than Ontario’s student wage. I like my province, but man does it have its issues.
Yeah, I was hoping my comment might prompt someone from Saskatchewan to chime in with their experience, but that didn’t happen. :b
I would have, but my first minimum wage-type job was after high school. I didn’t make enough to pay into CPP, but I don’t know if that’s a universal truth for younger workers or just because I didn’t work more than 10 hours a week.
Also fun fact, going back go my original comment about wage: Saskatchewan’s October increase to its general minimum wage won’t catch up to Ontario’s current student wage. Things are cheaper here, yes, but things aren’t (much if any) cheaper in Saskatoon or Regina than in London.
Is Regina at least better to live in? London is the armpit of Ontario. I hated it there, lol. But there is an excellent shawarma place near the college (Hadi’s).
Edit: Just found out Hadi’s is closed and there’s a new shawarma place there now. :( Hope Hadi is doing well.
I’m probably not the best person to ask. I’ve never lived in Regina, but from visiting it’s similar to Saskatoon, except it has a man-made lake instead of a nice river valley. It’s a nice enough city, but it’s also clearly a government town. As for London, I’ve never been. I have family there, and part of my family moved to Saskatchewan from London over 100 years ago.
Exactly, without proper protection and equality for same performance/quality of work, it’s just pure exploitation.
Billionaires don’t work. Why should children?
Let kids focus on their studies. We need a better educated population, not one where people are trained to work mindless jobs where corporations pay you the least amount possible.
Work is a practical teacher of the value of money, how to work together with people, and how to deal with an actual meaningful authority structure.
School has no way to teach the first, does not realistically teach the second, and makes any lessons with respect to the third meaningless between “no kid left behind”, the countless second chance opportunities given for breaking rules, and the fact that there’s no effective punishments offered for breaking rules.
I think many issues with young people (including my age and a little older) is that a lot of them don’t work until after highschool and have massive struggles with the transition of both having to work and being treated as an adult at the same time.
Um … you want permanent punishments for 13 year olds? That is sick, my friend. Do jobs teach teamwork better than ice hockey or D&D? That is a claim you could make, but maybe we don’t believe you. Remember, life is long, and expecting kids to learn adult lessons is at odds with psychology and reality.
High schools get jobs and learn that the assistant manager is always an asshole. Useful to know. But there’s no rush to figure it out, is there?
Maybe the issue is the fucking terrible toxic work culture and not the fact that young people are starting to work later in life?
Between all the progressive ideals that have been forced down our throats over the past few decades and it becoming socially unacceptable to do things like smoke and drink at work, I’d say we work in some of least toxic work cultures to date.
If you step on a small sack of shit or a slightly smaller sack of shit, your shoes still smell like shit.
In the US, wage theft is fucking big, the biggest part of the pie in its category.
In the current work culture, your employer will try to fuck you over if that means they get a cent more.
Toxic work culture also means dishonest management expectations, wage theft, and generally anti-employee policies.
For example, around 2-3 years ago I heard a fun story about why my old employer lost 3/4 of their IT team(MSP, their product was IT folks). The straw that broke the camel’s back was a management partner asking an employee “are you letting your family get in the way of your job?” This was because they couldn’t get this person to work overtime on the spot because they weren’t going to leave their kid’s sports game.
At that same employer, about 7 years ago, I was told I would have to start my day at the customer’s job site at or before 8AM, and I wouldn’t be compensated for my travel time because “everyone has a commute, buddy”. Problem was, my customers were often over an hour away, and they were going to bill the customer for my travel time anyway.
There’s certainly still toxic work cultures, and while I am glad you seemingly haven’t had to experience it as much recently, you shouldn’t discount other’s struggles just because you aren’t experiencing the same thing.
Conservative politics don’t poll well with educated people. An educated population is the very last thing Shmoe needs
Too young for the concept of doing work in exchange for something? No, I don’t think so. There’s no minimum age to learn how to do something, for the most part, if the interest is there.
However, those lower-wage jobs tend to be where a lot of the worker rights abuse tends to happen, and I absolutely think it’s way too young for them to realize if/when it’s happening, or to be in a position to properly defend themselves if they do. Sure, parental guidance and all, but let’s say my experience working with all kinds of parents in day camps, as a ski instructor and in elementary schools, didn’t make me very optimistic about a lot of them really being in a position to protect their children at work.
I’ve also honestly yet to really see it happening where it has 0 impact on their schooling, but that’s rather anecdotal…
Plus it is going to most affect families too poor to speak up and children of abusive parents who would force them to work
Schooling is mandatory until 18. Any other activity has to not interfere with that. Beyond that, do what ye will.
I agree with your point about teenagers work interfering with their schooling, but that’s not quite correct about the mandatory age.
It’s only mandatory to 18 in New Brunswick and 17 in Manitoba.
In the rest of Canada the age is 15 to 16. (16 in Saskatchewan.
https://web.archive.org/web/20100214200211/http://www.educationau-incanada.ca/index.aspx?action=educationsystem-systemeeducation&lang=eng
In MB, it’s either until you graduate or you turn 18.
https://www.edu.gov.mb.ca/k12/schools/gts.html
I went with this page:
I was working summer jobs doing farm labour since before I was a teenager (and I’m not that old), so I’m gonna say that it’s fine that 13 year olds are working.
I worked at a farm around 12-13 saved enough to quit and buy my first computer, it was awesome. Then 13-14 working at a convienence store. I don’t see an issue working, you learn the actual value of time and money without ma and pa paying for everything. By very early 20s, I owned my own house, cars, motorcycles etc. Kids going from only school life to full time career have a terrible time adjusting to whar that life change is
You say no issues while ignoring the exploitation angle, which is historical fact. But even if it weren’t, are we so pathetic that our society somehow needs these kids to work instead of being kids? Really? We can’t do any better?
What exploitation angle? I was paid the same minimum wage an adult would get. And as a kid that spent tons of time outdoors with friends, exploring nature, kayaking etc, it really didn’t cut into that, as you were done your shift and still had 5-6 hours of daylight to enjoy the summer. If I wasn’t working I would have wasted that time warching rerun cartoons, you can only swim so much in the pool so much before your skin prunes. lol
Right. Please research child labor exploitation and you will understand. It’s clearly documented. Just because you were lucky doesn’t mean others were, or will be.
Oh, I know it happens in places, as forced labour, or poor families needing children to work. But I see it as a bonus if your are just a willing participant and paid the equivalent wages. And other countries people have gone into their tradeschool by 16. NA has a delayed entry into real life
If you want to suggest that 16 is a great age to allow people to start work, I don’t think you’re going to find much resistance. That’s true in the United States, and much of the world, as you remarked. But 13 is nowhere close to 16, so that’s where you’re seeing resistance here.
Another point that I thought it was obvious, but perhaps it isn’t, is how easy it is for older coworkers and bosses to manipulate children. Kids don’t have the experience, and they don’t have the experience or composure necessary to reliably walk away from bad work environments. So then, is there some totally necessary societal function that we desperately need young teenagers to feel? If there’s not, why don’t we take the risk off of them.
And finally we have to come back to the elephant in the room. In reality, people who propose allowing children to work are doing so because they don’t want to pay adults more.
And again I think it’s obvious, but maybe it’s not so obvious to others, that if the goal is to give kids a variety of experiences then there are plenty of great ways to do so. Sports, music, school, volunteering, extracurriculars, you name it. Structured environments with proper supervision, managed by people who care about the safety of those kids, and aren’t going to try to make a buck by mistreating them.
All good points, thanks for presenting them. My kids did the sport and volunteer route too, two of them chose to work after graduating highschool, but the other two chose to start early one at 11 delivering papers and the other at 13. They were both open and would alert us if any exploitation was happening, but I recognize some kids may not have the skills. My one daughter found working very enjoyable, a sense of purpose and earning their own paycheck. Annecdotally it set her ahead in life, at 20 she had saved enough and was able to buy an apartment in metro Vancouver…if you know prices here you can see how that is a huge achievement, she still had time for school, friends, movies and sports. For myself I would find that too busy, but some people enjoy it.
I also had to do farm labour (picking fruit) before I was legally allowed to work at 14. I was taken advantage of (financially) that whole summer - underpaid, and occasionally worked an entire day and got stiffed outright. I’ve never stopped working since then (I’m in my early 50s), aside from a few months of unemployment between jobs that was more stressful than working. I’ll likely have to work until I die.
Fuck that shit.
My kids are 18 and 20 and as long as they’re in school, it can stay that way. Once you start, you don’t stop. I’ll let them enjoy it as long as they can.
So right.
Kids already worked in the mines when they were 5 or 6. We should regress to these great time so that the GDP can continue to grow, and shitty employers can continue to pay poverty wages.
I mean, Minecraft is one of the most popular games in the world… Maybe the kids are trying to tell us something
Yeah, they like to play games, not work at Tim Hortons.
So, based on your summertime work, it’s okay for kids to work year-round?
I also worked for the Parks and Rec department of the city where I grew up throughout the school year, startinf when I was 14 or 15… So yes?
Should vulnerable members of our society be exploited?
The vulnerable are already being exploited. Now they’re thinking about the children.
this doesn’t make a lick of sense. I know 16 year olds who WANT to work and can’t even find jobs because of the foreign temp workers/international students. Saskatchewan wants to allow 13 year olds? why? there’s literally no point. A business that is already more than willing to take advantage of a potential employee is still going to favor some “student” from India over a 13 year old Canadian kid. you can take more advantage of the Indian kid as opposed to the 13 year old Kid.
This is one massive nothing burger.
“We clearly haven’t made the working class desperate enough yet. Let’s have immigrants and students fight over jobs to make everything even nastier!”
I’m sure this won’t in any way result in a huge cohort of angry underemployed young people. No siree.
I’m also starting to think that businesspeople aren’t the Galtian ubermenchen that they think they are, given that they by and large can’t plan more than six months in advance.