With the stories about data from period tracking apps being shared with law enforcement, I was wondering if there was a self hosted alternative I could host for my daughter. My searches so far have not returned any good results. Thanks!
Sorry, I’m just a dude with no periods that buries my head in the sand a bit to much. The government is doing fucking WHAT with your period information? How is this any of their business? Why would they want to know this information?
That is fucking insane, considering there are a million reasons why someone might not have a period (stress, could just be an irregular person, or literally no reason at all. Humans are not all the same). Or they could simply forget to input data into their calendar one time. Or they could simply decide that they don’t want to use the app any more, then change their mind a few months later. This data would be circumstantial evidence at best, and if anyone is being convicted of a crime based on this data, I am extremely suspicious of the court system in that country/state.
And that’s BEFORE we even talk about how it’s a huge invasion of privacy.
Ah, based on the original wording, I thought this was something that was already happening. As you said, absolutely better to be safe than sorry. Do everything you can to avoid being put in a situation where you need to figure out if this will hold up in court. I want to believe it wont, but who tf knows with how this world is these days.
I read about that case, but if I am understanding that correctly, in those messages someone admitted to having an abortion. Having evidence of something happening and not having evidence of something not happening (e.g. a gap in period tracking data) are pretty different in the courtroom. I was specifically asking about subpoenaing period tracking data, citing a gap in the data as evidence of anything. If that held up in court, I would lose any remaining faith that I had in whatever government this happened under, because from a purely logical point of view, lack of data is not evidence of anything.
Police prefer that criminal cases are resolved by compelling a confession. If a woman is told by the police they have her period data, most people would crack in that situation. Whether it holds up in court is mostly irrelevant.
It should go without saying, but never talk to police and if you’re being interviewed, insist on invoking your 6th amendment right to an attorney and your 5th amendment right to remain silent. And don’t engage with anything the police say.
Circumstantial evidence can still be enough evidence to start an investigation, in pursuit of more solid evidence.
Normally this would be a reasonable course of action in proving someone guilty of a crime. However, here the law is completely unreasonable, and the process is being exploited.
Got it, thanks. I tend to not pay attention to the news, so sometimes I peek out of the rock I live under and am surprised at how much the world has gone to shit. The scenario described by OP is unfortunately plausible.
Just so you see it, on android at least I can recommend drip which is open source and also keeps your data local. It’s available on fdroid: https://f-droid.org/de/packages/com.drip/
Use the one built into iPhones and either encrypt iCloud so Apple cannot read it ( but no way to recover if you forget password) or turn off iCloud sync for health data (you will lose history with new phone).
Or, print out a one page annual calendar and use a pencil.
While that is actually nice and does focus on privacy, I’m not sure if “funded by […] government” is a good argument in favor in the context of this post…
Drip is one of the better options if you want to just download something from your app store of choice. It’s FOSS, requires minimal permissions, and seems to store all data locally.
Besides ease of use and the practicality of having it at hand at all times, these apps show you important stats like longest time between periods, average time between periods, current time since last period. Same with length of period. All useful stats for you, your doctor, and potentially your partner if you’re trying for a baby.
That’s just if it’s unlocked with your thumbprint, since, if you’re being arrested the cops get your thumbprint anyway, but if it’s a password or phrase, you have the right to remain silent, correct?
This is super cool. Unfortunately all the teens are using iPhones and I don’t think I’ll be able to install this. If it’s ever an iPhone app I’ll be the first downloader.
Pretty unlikely that I ever port to iPhone, I dont have one to dev on. To be honest, my partner doesnt even use it, so it was a little bit of a waste of time, except for a learning opportunity.
Given that Apple is more likely to submit to government (any, any country) coercion and doesn’t allow side loading of apps your next phone should be Android. Especially one that supports GrapheneOS or CalyxOS.
Failing that, many apps work as web applications and if saved to the home screen it’ll both look and feel like a native app.
If you have an Apple computer and are willing to download some code there’s period underground… it’s terribly written by me for my wife. She uses it on her iPhone and it keeps all data local. I never tried to get it on the App Store due to qt licenses, and because the encryption module didn’t compile so it will rely on you not unlocking your device for someone who shouldn’t be seeing the data. There’s other options I’ve seen on here hopefully one of those will work.
It does exist on the android store with encryption as an option and blank data with no warning if you enter the wrong password. Also includes a quick delete and a quick delete with random data written into the database as deletion options
Drip looks great! I’ve been using Ovuview which says it keeps your data private, but being proprietary I can’t easily know for sure. I love Ovuview for its depth of tracking (Symptothermal plus any custom symptoms you want) and it’s accurate predictions.
But will be really nice if Drip works out well (gonna try it for a while first before ditching Ovuview) so I can finally use something FOSS.
As someone who uses Nextcloud, why do you suggest obfuscating the name of the calendar event? My nextcloud instance is only accessible from outside my LAN via HTTPS, so no concern about someone using a packet sniffer on public WiFi or something of that sort. The server is located on my property, so physical security isn’t a real concern unless someone breaks in with a USB drive or physically removes the server from the rack and steals it. If someone was to gain access to my network remotely, they’d still need login credentials for Nextcloud or for Proxmox in order to clone the VM drive.
To be clear, I’m not disagreeing with you; I’m wondering if I may be over-estimating data security on my home network. Considering you’re posting from infosec.pub, I’m assuming you know more about this than I do.
Also, I feel like I need to say that the fact that OP even needs to consider data security for something like really makes me wonder how parts of our society have gone so wrong.
If your concern for wanting to self host is that you’re concerned your government might attempt to access that data, then you should also assume they could get a warrant for that data and force you to decrypt it if it were encrypted at rest on a machine in your home.
That’s a very valid point, and certainly a reason to obfuscate the calendar event. I would argue that in general, if the concern is the government forcing you to decrypt the data, there’s really no good solution. If they have a warrant, they will get the encrypted data; the only barrier is how willing you are to refuse to give the encryption key. I think some jurisdictions prevent this on 5th amendment grounds, but I’m not not a lawyer.
Right, this is exactly what I was saying. Plausible deniability because you know you’re not going to be able to fight to protect the data when they come knocking.
The police can confiscate your servers. Considering some states are treating abortion as murder, I don’t think it’s unrealistic to say the police could raid your home and confiscate your devices just on suspicion.
The only thing safe against that is an encrypted device locked with a password, no biometrics like fingerprints or face ID. As far as I know, you can refuse to give a password under the 5th amendment, but you can’t refuse to unlock a device with a fingerprint reader or face ID.
I’ve heard log28 is a good simple app with a local database and without tracking. I haven’t looked at it too closely to verify much. But seems like it hasn’t had an update for a while.
Look into Periodical as well, it’s on fdroid and completely local. It also shows when the next period should be and works better than some closed source apps.
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Sorry, I’m just a dude with no periods that buries my head in the sand a bit to much. The government is doing fucking WHAT with your period information? How is this any of their business? Why would they want to know this information?
Using it to determine if you get pregnant and then suddenly aren’t. So they can charge you for getting an abortion.
That is fucking insane, considering there are a million reasons why someone might not have a period (stress, could just be an irregular person, or literally no reason at all. Humans are not all the same). Or they could simply forget to input data into their calendar one time. Or they could simply decide that they don’t want to use the app any more, then change their mind a few months later. This data would be circumstantial evidence at best, and if anyone is being convicted of a crime based on this data, I am extremely suspicious of the court system in that country/state.
And that’s BEFORE we even talk about how it’s a huge invasion of privacy.
And which governments are doing this?
The third world government of Texas for one. Whether they target my kid or not, better safe than sorry.
Ah, based on the original wording, I thought this was something that was already happening. As you said, absolutely better to be safe than sorry. Do everything you can to avoid being put in a situation where you need to figure out if this will hold up in court. I want to believe it wont, but who tf knows with how this world is these days.
A US state has already subpoenaed Facebook for Messenger texts to prove an abortion case. It’s not speculative.
I read about that case, but if I am understanding that correctly, in those messages someone admitted to having an abortion. Having evidence of something happening and not having evidence of something not happening (e.g. a gap in period tracking data) are pretty different in the courtroom. I was specifically asking about subpoenaing period tracking data, citing a gap in the data as evidence of anything. If that held up in court, I would lose any remaining faith that I had in whatever government this happened under, because from a purely logical point of view, lack of data is not evidence of anything.
Police prefer that criminal cases are resolved by compelling a confession. If a woman is told by the police they have her period data, most people would crack in that situation. Whether it holds up in court is mostly irrelevant.
It should go without saying, but never talk to police and if you’re being interviewed, insist on invoking your 6th amendment right to an attorney and your 5th amendment right to remain silent. And don’t engage with anything the police say.
There is considerable concern this will happen in the US post-Roe.
Circumstantial evidence can still be enough evidence to start an investigation, in pursuit of more solid evidence.
Normally this would be a reasonable course of action in proving someone guilty of a crime. However, here the law is completely unreasonable, and the process is being exploited.
Men trying to control women’s bodies. Tale as old as time sadly.
Folks are misleading you. There’s CONCERN this could happen, it’s not happening.
Got it, thanks. I tend to not pay attention to the news, so sometimes I peek out of the rock I live under and am surprised at how much the world has gone to shit. The scenario described by OP is unfortunately plausible.
A woman. I’m interested too… It’s really tiring keeping track of it on an analog Calendar.
If you can’t find anything, I suggest you make her a barebones one or get her to use something like etar. It’s all local.
Thank you!
Just so you see it, on android at least I can recommend drip which is open source and also keeps your data local. It’s available on fdroid: https://f-droid.org/de/packages/com.drip/
Thanks! ❤️
Use the one built into iPhones and either encrypt iCloud so Apple cannot read it ( but no way to recover if you forget password) or turn off iCloud sync for health data (you will lose history with new phone).
Or, print out a one page annual calendar and use a pencil.
Drip is a good option. Funded by Mozilla and German Govt
While that is actually nice and does focus on privacy, I’m not sure if “funded by […] government” is a good argument in favor in the context of this post…
The German Government, and it is an offline and encrypted app. Not everything governments do is bad.
The German Government, and it is an offline and encrypted app. Not everything governments do is bad.
F-droid has a few Android apps: https://search.f-droid.org/?q=period&lang=en
Edit: this one also seems to work on iOS: https://bloodyhealth.gitlab.io/
Drip seems wonderful. Thanks for posting.
I’m looking for a good option too. Hopefully someone chimes in with something!
Got nothing to suggest but just wanted to call out that you’re an awesome
dadparent.Thanks. I’m trying.
Or mum
🤦♂️ Yep. Updated comment.
Drip is one of the better options if you want to just download something from your app store of choice. It’s FOSS, requires minimal permissions, and seems to store all data locally.
Why do you even need an app? A paper calendar should suffice. Seriously, what function does an app do?
Aside from what the other commenter said, this is something I’m looking for for my daughter and believe it or not she prefers an app.
Also, this is the self hosted community. People self host all kinds of stupid shit. Why are you here?
Besides ease of use and the practicality of having it at hand at all times, these apps show you important stats like longest time between periods, average time between periods, current time since last period. Same with length of period. All useful stats for you, your doctor, and potentially your partner if you’re trying for a baby.
Why not just make a spreadsheet?
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All of the functionality mentioned in the comment I replied to is trivial to automate in a spreadsheet with a few manual entries every month.
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Random and unrelated question, are there any self hostable MFP alternatives?
This seems to be a recommended option
Eh, fair point. That said, I use a spreadsheet for fitness, so I might be a bit biased.
I wrote a period app for my partner, everything is encrypted and never leaves the device.
It has a option where you can set false passwords, so that if you are being compelled to unlock it, it will get up fake data.
Code is open source: https://github.com/cameroncros/PrivatePeriodTracker
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.cross.privateperiodtracker
It may not meet your needs, but perhaps worth a look. I am open to adding features (except for ads and tracking obviously).
“if you are being compelled to unlock it” What kind of world are we living in? I feel awful for the kids of today.
That’s just if it’s unlocked with your thumbprint, since, if you’re being arrested the cops get your thumbprint anyway, but if it’s a password or phrase, you have the right to remain silent, correct?
Yeah holy fuck, that’s dystopian.
This could 100% happen in the US today given the reproductive laws being passed.
This is super cool. Unfortunately all the teens are using iPhones and I don’t think I’ll be able to install this. If it’s ever an iPhone app I’ll be the first downloader.
Pretty unlikely that I ever port to iPhone, I dont have one to dev on. To be honest, my partner doesnt even use it, so it was a little bit of a waste of time, except for a learning opportunity.
Given that Apple is more likely to submit to government (any, any country) coercion and doesn’t allow side loading of apps your next phone should be Android. Especially one that supports GrapheneOS or CalyxOS.
Failing that, many apps work as web applications and if saved to the home screen it’ll both look and feel like a native app.
Apple’s systems are designed so that they don’t really have a choice in the matter. The end user holds the only master key.
If you have an Apple computer and are willing to download some code there’s period underground… it’s terribly written by me for my wife. She uses it on her iPhone and it keeps all data local. I never tried to get it on the App Store due to qt licenses, and because the encryption module didn’t compile so it will rely on you not unlocking your device for someone who shouldn’t be seeing the data. There’s other options I’ve seen on here hopefully one of those will work.
It does exist on the android store with encryption as an option and blank data with no warning if you enter the wrong password. Also includes a quick delete and a quick delete with random data written into the database as deletion options
Menstrual cycle trackers
Started using Drip a few months back, seems interesting as it bases next period time on the last ones.
Log28 just takes what you enter as period length to show when the next one starts.
They are both on f-droid btw
Drip looks great! I’ve been using Ovuview which says it keeps your data private, but being proprietary I can’t easily know for sure. I love Ovuview for its depth of tracking (Symptothermal plus any custom symptoms you want) and it’s accurate predictions.
But will be really nice if Drip works out well (gonna try it for a while first before ditching Ovuview) so I can finally use something FOSS.
I’d probably just spin up a calendar such as one on Nextcloud but also change the name of the event to another plausible name such as:
Pay day.
Grandma coming to town.
Grandma leaving town.
Walk the cat.
Pick up groceries.
Collect mail.
Drop off mail.
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To tell you the truth - I don’t bleed from my genitals so I don’t have the solution for you.
Time between periods should be 24-38 days. If you can’t manage that in a calendar, how can an app know?
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Damage? What damage?
Also if you’re not on one you should be. Don’t want to be forced to have some bastard rapists kid.
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As someone who uses Nextcloud, why do you suggest obfuscating the name of the calendar event? My nextcloud instance is only accessible from outside my LAN via HTTPS, so no concern about someone using a packet sniffer on public WiFi or something of that sort. The server is located on my property, so physical security isn’t a real concern unless someone breaks in with a USB drive or physically removes the server from the rack and steals it. If someone was to gain access to my network remotely, they’d still need login credentials for Nextcloud or for Proxmox in order to clone the VM drive.
To be clear, I’m not disagreeing with you; I’m wondering if I may be over-estimating data security on my home network. Considering you’re posting from infosec.pub, I’m assuming you know more about this than I do.
Also, I feel like I need to say that the fact that OP even needs to consider data security for something like really makes me wonder how parts of our society have gone so wrong.
If your concern for wanting to self host is that you’re concerned your government might attempt to access that data, then you should also assume they could get a warrant for that data and force you to decrypt it if it were encrypted at rest on a machine in your home.
That’s a very valid point, and certainly a reason to obfuscate the calendar event. I would argue that in general, if the concern is the government forcing you to decrypt the data, there’s really no good solution. If they have a warrant, they will get the encrypted data; the only barrier is how willing you are to refuse to give the encryption key. I think some jurisdictions prevent this on 5th amendment grounds, but I’m not not a lawyer.
Right, this is exactly what I was saying. Plausible deniability because you know you’re not going to be able to fight to protect the data when they come knocking.
They can’t force you to decrypt it in the US due to the 5th amendment
The police can confiscate your servers. Considering some states are treating abortion as murder, I don’t think it’s unrealistic to say the police could raid your home and confiscate your devices just on suspicion.
The only thing safe against that is an encrypted device locked with a password, no biometrics like fingerprints or face ID. As far as I know, you can refuse to give a password under the 5th amendment, but you can’t refuse to unlock a device with a fingerprint reader or face ID.
I’ve heard log28 is a good simple app with a local database and without tracking. I haven’t looked at it too closely to verify much. But seems like it hasn’t had an update for a while.
Look into Periodical as well, it’s on fdroid and completely local. It also shows when the next period should be and works better than some closed source apps.
If for some reason self hosting doesn’t work out, try looking into Proton Calendar. Secured, encrypted, and Swiss. They do not entertain subpoenas.