A popular narrative suggests young people are liberal and getting more liberal. Thus, social media buzzed when a chart surfaced in spring that seemed to suggest 12th-grade boys had become overwhelm…
While many believe young people are becoming more liberal, data shows that 12th grade boys are nearly twice as likely to identify as conservative compared to liberal. Around 25% of high school seniors identify as conservative while only 13% identify as liberal. In contrast, the share of 12th grade girls identifying as liberal has risen to 30%. Many factors may contribute to this trend, including the rhetoric of Donald Trump which appealed to disaffected young men, and the focus of progressive movements on issues of gender and racial equality which some young men perceive as a “matriarchy.” However, most high school seniors claim no political identity, and many boys in high school do not actively discuss
A dismissal or lack of consideration for the unique issues facing men and boys and the unique solutions they require. Focusing exclusively on women and girls. Viewing boys as defective girls.
In this thread, here’s a few specific examples
Let’s use their own “reports” to show those women that their boyfriends/husbands/fathers think they own them.
The rate of girls identitying as liberal is significantly higher[…]Probably because the girls face actual threats to their freedoms, while the conservative boys’ complaints are about a bunch of imaginary nonsense.
I was a “Fox News”-viewing turd in high school, too[…]then I grew up.
It’s passive because it’s not direct and focused. It’s more neglect than abuse. Men’s problems are not just secondary; they’re not even worth consideration, and men should just Fix It Themselves.
Schools in particular are extremely geared towards focusing on girls and their successful development.
WTF does that matter? Are you seriously making the argument that the only people who matter are ones whose rights are threatened?
Attitudes like this are the reason the alt-right is rising in this country. Good grief there’s so many opinions in here that are just rank, literally stomach turning.
Did you know that we currently still have almost exactly the same school form that we had when school was for boys only? It was literally designed with only boys in mind. That the sexism girls face, which makes them more compliant and more pleasing for teachers, is now seen as an attack on boys is hilarious. When you want them to be equally liked by the teachers you will have to punish boys as much as girls for being rough. You have to encourage boys as well to stay clean, play domestic shit indoors and care more for their social appearance. Because that’s what giving girls their current “advantage”.
lol what are you smoking? Recess hasn’t gone anywhere lmao. In fact, I fucking wish I had as cool of a playground for recess as my nephew does when I was a kid. Shit’s fancy as fuck, all kinds of monkey bars, rock walls, a puke-a-tron that puts the merry-go-rounds of old to shame, etc… Mind you, he goes to school in a super liberal school district of an already very liberal state. The park district playgrounds have gotten way cooler too, one of the playgrounds at my local park has a fucking zipline now.
The fact that fucking recess is the best you could come up with, and it’s just blatantly not even fucking true, says it all.
Also, girls like outdoor recess too, MORE so than boys, actually, in my experience. What a weird thing to gender.
The gender performance gap in primary and secondary education is, however, well documented, with girls outperforming boys to a statistically significant degree in ELA across the board, but with variability from school district to school district in math. Interestingly, boys tend to outperform girls in math mostly in higher income school districts, suggesting that two things can be true at once: patriarchal attitudes around boys and math performance can and do persist, mostly in white bread communities, AND, the educational system as a whole may be failing some boys, mostly in lower income communities.
Where the discussion gets gross, of course, is where MRA types use these statistics as a justification for misogyny, or on the flip side where those sensitive to that go out of their way to wave stats like this away, sometimes even making a ‘boys will be boys’ argument that is historically problematic for completely different reasons and in the end amounts to blaming the kids for the problem.
Again, two things can be true at once - society is still male dominated and victimizes women in many facets of life. At the same time, the little boys struggling at school … mostly in poor neighborhoods … aren’t the root of the problem, and certainly aren’t the ‘dominant class’ referred to above. The conversation should not be a zero sum game where recognizing the challenges of one group means you are trivializing the challenges of another.
(Though in fairness many do try to make it thus, so the caution is understandable).
I find it interesting that boys suddenly are described as “struggling” but only when girls started to slightly outperform them in certain classes. School was designed with boys in mind and somehow they never struggled before. For me the reason is obvious, school is perhaps the one field in life where the sexist upbringing of girls gives them a slight advantage because they are raised to be pleasing and responsible.
For me the reason is obvious, school is perhaps the one field in life where the sexist upbringing of girls gives them a slight advantage because they are raised to be pleasing and responsible.
I can definitely see where that reasoning is coming from. It would be interesting to cross reference school performance against a survey of gendered parental attitudes regarding classroom behavior and to see if there have been shifts over time.
The attitude of your parents isn’t the major influence, though. In a society that pushes for gender roles, while you can still try as a parent to not enforce them, this won’t help much.
When you look at studies (and there are many which analyse the disparities in school) they often conclude it is because basically teachers like the girls more since they are more often quiet and tidy. Sadly, many studies who used anonymised tests still had handwritten tests or don’t mention whether they were handwritten, which I think is a huge oversight.
Also, boys are globally less likely to spend time on their homework, which was directly linked to worse grades. Here is an interesting bigger study: OECD study Underperformance in Boys
Interestingly, even with better grades, people still overall believe girls are good in school because they are diligent and boys are good because they are intelligent. I wonder if that couldn’t also influence the way some teachers give marks.
The stereotype that girls lack talent
Please keep it positive (both comments above). Against my better judgment I got involved in this discussion so now it would be wrong to start swinging the mod hammer, but please let’s remember this is the nice Lemmy instance. We need to keep the personal comments out of the … comments.
We’re here to discuss tough issues in good faith and learn something. Hopefully. Possibly. Maybe on Tuesday.
We can trade anecdotes (and insults) all day long and none of it means a thing. You asked for a specific example and I gave you one. Just the first one off the top of my head. Schools in my area are canceling unstructured outdoor play time, which hurts boys more than girls.
Here’s one you’re probably more familiar with, since it’s nationwide: men being pushed out of careers in education.
I’m sure you’ll just move the goalposts on that one too though. “Ah but it’s not GOVERNMENT doing it so it doesn’t count!” or “I know a male teacher so it doesn’t count!”
You didn’t give an example of shit. I asked for an example of how boys’ rights are being treated and you come up with some wussy nonsense about recess. Give me a break. No one has a “right” to recess, even if your complaints about it were true, which they aren’t.
Your ideology is a fragile, weak joke. It’s pathetic that the right thinks they own masculinity and strength while acting like a bunch of whiny wimps.
Got a citation for that? I was of the impression that — especially at the primary level — schools were going out of their way to recruit more male teachers. Now retention may be a different matter. I could be wrong on both counts, though and would like to educate myself.
Do you have kids? I do. My boy has more than enough unstructured outdoor play and comes home scraped up all the time. I’ve volunteered as a lunch / recess monitor. They’re doing just fine and doing young boy things.
Several boys only organizations or programs have changed to accepting all genders. Meanwhile, most girls only organizations or programs have remained girls only.
Gendered organizations take away valuable educational opportunities from the opposite gender when they have no alternative. Since this is about high schoolers, it’s worth noting that when I was in high school, there were some extra-curricular educational opportunities that were girls-only and had no open-enrollment equivalent whatsoever. Of course, if those same clubs only allowed boys, there would be a shitstorm and people would probably end up losing their jobs over it.
These programs exist specifically in fields where women and girls are underrepresented. Why would boys need, for example, an additional chess club program or an additional computer science educational option when they often are the dominant gender (by far) in these courses? If that’s not what you are referring to, please provide a few examples.
The error you’re making is treating people as groups instead of individuals. There being a lot of men in, for example, computer science doesn’t benefit the boys who aren’t but want to be in any meaningful way. You would never have a girls-only football team without having one for boys or open-enrollment alongside it, even if the boys get to play football in PE sometimes. Why is it suddenly okay when the subject is academic?
So what? That has nothing to do with anyone’s rights. Girls are facing having their body autonomy stripped away and the best you can come up with for boys is that they don’t have boys only orgs at school anymore?
Yeah, I’m not buying it. The Patriarchy is real, and whatever imagined neglect you think is happening is so far removed from the reality of what women have to deal with all day every day that it’s laughable. Won’t someone think of the poor dominant class?
What sucks is that conservatives don’t generally act in most men’s best interests either. It’s just a grift to get us to buy in to their brand and vote for them. Look at people like Andrew Tate.
Why? Following your logic it would also be sexist against women to write an article or start a discussion without addressing women’s issues as well. Wouldn’t it also be racist and ableist if you don’t talk about the issues minorities face? Don’t you see how this doesn’t make sense?
It’s not discrimatory against all other “groups” if you bring up the issues of one group.
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A dismissal or lack of consideration for the unique issues facing men and boys and the unique solutions they require. Focusing exclusively on women and girls. Viewing boys as defective girls.
In this thread, here’s a few specific examples
It’s passive because it’s not direct and focused. It’s more neglect than abuse. Men’s problems are not just secondary; they’re not even worth consideration, and men should just Fix It Themselves.
Schools in particular are extremely geared towards focusing on girls and their successful development.
What male -specific rights are currently threatened or actively being removed?
WTF does that matter? Are you seriously making the argument that the only people who matter are ones whose rights are threatened?
Attitudes like this are the reason the alt-right is rising in this country. Good grief there’s so many opinions in here that are just rank, literally stomach turning.
Recess. Unstructured outdoor play including monitored roughhousing.
Did you know that we currently still have almost exactly the same school form that we had when school was for boys only? It was literally designed with only boys in mind. That the sexism girls face, which makes them more compliant and more pleasing for teachers, is now seen as an attack on boys is hilarious. When you want them to be equally liked by the teachers you will have to punish boys as much as girls for being rough. You have to encourage boys as well to stay clean, play domestic shit indoors and care more for their social appearance. Because that’s what giving girls their current “advantage”.
Lol recess is a right now?
lol what are you smoking? Recess hasn’t gone anywhere lmao. In fact, I fucking wish I had as cool of a playground for recess as my nephew does when I was a kid. Shit’s fancy as fuck, all kinds of monkey bars, rock walls, a puke-a-tron that puts the merry-go-rounds of old to shame, etc… Mind you, he goes to school in a super liberal school district of an already very liberal state. The park district playgrounds have gotten way cooler too, one of the playgrounds at my local park has a fucking zipline now.
The fact that fucking recess is the best you could come up with, and it’s just blatantly not even fucking true, says it all.
Also, girls like outdoor recess too, MORE so than boys, actually, in my experience. What a weird thing to gender.
The gender performance gap in primary and secondary education is, however, well documented, with girls outperforming boys to a statistically significant degree in ELA across the board, but with variability from school district to school district in math. Interestingly, boys tend to outperform girls in math mostly in higher income school districts, suggesting that two things can be true at once: patriarchal attitudes around boys and math performance can and do persist, mostly in white bread communities, AND, the educational system as a whole may be failing some boys, mostly in lower income communities.
Where the discussion gets gross, of course, is where MRA types use these statistics as a justification for misogyny, or on the flip side where those sensitive to that go out of their way to wave stats like this away, sometimes even making a ‘boys will be boys’ argument that is historically problematic for completely different reasons and in the end amounts to blaming the kids for the problem.
Again, two things can be true at once - society is still male dominated and victimizes women in many facets of life. At the same time, the little boys struggling at school … mostly in poor neighborhoods … aren’t the root of the problem, and certainly aren’t the ‘dominant class’ referred to above. The conversation should not be a zero sum game where recognizing the challenges of one group means you are trivializing the challenges of another.
(Though in fairness many do try to make it thus, so the caution is understandable).
I find it interesting that boys suddenly are described as “struggling” but only when girls started to slightly outperform them in certain classes. School was designed with boys in mind and somehow they never struggled before. For me the reason is obvious, school is perhaps the one field in life where the sexist upbringing of girls gives them a slight advantage because they are raised to be pleasing and responsible.
I can definitely see where that reasoning is coming from. It would be interesting to cross reference school performance against a survey of gendered parental attitudes regarding classroom behavior and to see if there have been shifts over time.
The attitude of your parents isn’t the major influence, though. In a society that pushes for gender roles, while you can still try as a parent to not enforce them, this won’t help much.
When you look at studies (and there are many which analyse the disparities in school) they often conclude it is because basically teachers like the girls more since they are more often quiet and tidy. Sadly, many studies who used anonymised tests still had handwritten tests or don’t mention whether they were handwritten, which I think is a huge oversight.
Also, boys are globally less likely to spend time on their homework, which was directly linked to worse grades. Here is an interesting bigger study: OECD study Underperformance in Boys
Interestingly, even with better grades, people still overall believe girls are good in school because they are diligent and boys are good because they are intelligent. I wonder if that couldn’t also influence the way some teachers give marks. The stereotype that girls lack talent
It’s almost like he’d been told the opinion he was supposed to hold and then had to frantically explain why when someone finally asked him.
Relevant username.
Not everything is a conspiracy. Go outside please.
Except the conspiracy to rob boys of recess right?
Not a conspiracy, just a natural outcome of anti-male attitudes in primary education.
“It’s not a conspiracy when I do it”.
Please keep it positive (both comments above). Against my better judgment I got involved in this discussion so now it would be wrong to start swinging the mod hammer, but please let’s remember this is the nice Lemmy instance. We need to keep the personal comments out of the … comments.
We’re here to discuss tough issues in good faith and learn something. Hopefully. Possibly. Maybe on Tuesday.
Right, sorry. I actually did forget which instance I was on.
We can trade anecdotes (and insults) all day long and none of it means a thing. You asked for a specific example and I gave you one. Just the first one off the top of my head. Schools in my area are canceling unstructured outdoor play time, which hurts boys more than girls.
Here’s one you’re probably more familiar with, since it’s nationwide: men being pushed out of careers in education.
I’m sure you’ll just move the goalposts on that one too though. “Ah but it’s not GOVERNMENT doing it so it doesn’t count!” or “I know a male teacher so it doesn’t count!”
You didn’t give an example of shit. I asked for an example of how boys’ rights are being treated and you come up with some wussy nonsense about recess. Give me a break. No one has a “right” to recess, even if your complaints about it were true, which they aren’t.
Your ideology is a fragile, weak joke. It’s pathetic that the right thinks they own masculinity and strength while acting like a bunch of whiny wimps.
Got a citation for that? I was of the impression that — especially at the primary level — schools were going out of their way to recruit more male teachers. Now retention may be a different matter. I could be wrong on both counts, though and would like to educate myself.
If they are, it doesn’t seem to be working: https://www.menteach.org/resources/data_about_men_teachers/
Unless I’m reading it wrong, this is showing a modest but positive increase in the percentage of male elementary school teachers since the 90’s.
I would call it in the range of statistical noise, personally
Do you have kids? I do. My boy has more than enough unstructured outdoor play and comes home scraped up all the time. I’ve volunteered as a lunch / recess monitor. They’re doing just fine and doing young boy things.
Good anecdotal evidence, the numbers are against you
Several boys only organizations or programs have changed to accepting all genders. Meanwhile, most girls only organizations or programs have remained girls only.
This is right wing nonsense right here ^
What you just said (even if it were true, which I don’t actually believe to be the case) what you said is NOT-infringing on anyone’s rights.
Gendered organizations take away valuable educational opportunities from the opposite gender when they have no alternative. Since this is about high schoolers, it’s worth noting that when I was in high school, there were some extra-curricular educational opportunities that were girls-only and had no open-enrollment equivalent whatsoever. Of course, if those same clubs only allowed boys, there would be a shitstorm and people would probably end up losing their jobs over it.
You’re right, there should be open enrollment for everyone.
These programs exist specifically in fields where women and girls are underrepresented. Why would boys need, for example, an additional chess club program or an additional computer science educational option when they often are the dominant gender (by far) in these courses? If that’s not what you are referring to, please provide a few examples.
The error you’re making is treating people as groups instead of individuals. There being a lot of men in, for example, computer science doesn’t benefit the boys who aren’t but want to be in any meaningful way. You would never have a girls-only football team without having one for boys or open-enrollment alongside it, even if the boys get to play football in PE sometimes. Why is it suddenly okay when the subject is academic?
So what? That has nothing to do with anyone’s rights. Girls are facing having their body autonomy stripped away and the best you can come up with for boys is that they don’t have boys only orgs at school anymore?
Conservatives are so fucking soft.
Yeah, I’m not buying it. The Patriarchy is real, and whatever imagined neglect you think is happening is so far removed from the reality of what women have to deal with all day every day that it’s laughable. Won’t someone think of the poor dominant class?
12th Grade boys are a dominant class? Not only is that statement totally lacking empathy but its also ignoring the evidence that Girls now graduate High School and College at rates well exceeding Boys. If there is a dominant “class” for the 12th Graders it’s Girls and not Boys.
Conservatives are thinking of them. They’re the only ones, apparently. Is it any wonder that’s where their allegiance goes?
“Haha, fuck you and everyone like you” is a terrible way to persuade people to your side.
What sucks is that conservatives don’t generally act in most men’s best interests either. It’s just a grift to get us to buy in to their brand and vote for them. Look at people like Andrew Tate.
Talking about the issues women and girls face is not an attack on men and boys.
Talking exclusively about the issues women and girls face is, though.
Why? Following your logic it would also be sexist against women to write an article or start a discussion without addressing women’s issues as well. Wouldn’t it also be racist and ableist if you don’t talk about the issues minorities face? Don’t you see how this doesn’t make sense?
It’s not discrimatory against all other “groups” if you bring up the issues of one group.