At some point, getting Nintendo would be a career moment and I honestly believe a good move for both companies. It’s just taking a long time for Nintendo to see that their future exists off of their own hardware. A long time… :-)
C’mon, I can’t take it seriously if you are going to overblow it like this. Tears of the Kingdom is a marvel of engineering and losing sight of that because it’s not running on the most powerful gaming hardware is a huge disservice to the work put into it. It’s a superficial way to judge them and it only makes me give less credit to your opinion. It just make you sound like the sort of gamer who would prefer a hyper-realistic generic game running at 4K 60 FPS than anything with passion, who has no appreciation for a more modest game that is finely crafted.
Both Animal Crossing and Smash Ultimate too, like I said, the online is disappointing, but they are still excellent games both single-player and couch multiplayer. To call it “poor quality” and “unacceptable”? If you really mean it then I just don’t trust your opinion. Listing such a small nitpick as Animal Crossing’s UX in that is downright silly. All of these games are fun, beautiful and even technically impressive for a limited hardware like this.
This is not me being a blind fan. I have played plenty of Animal Crossing and I’ve seen those issues. There are things in it that I’d wish were expanded or brought back from previous entries, but I can put that into perspective, considering how much content in it is new or much more polished than before. To deem it “unacceptable” because of that, the person must not have played any real bad games.
I’m not keen on it but I’m also not overly concerned about how Nintendo offers older games now because I know how to get them. And so does anyone who really care about this really. As for Mario 35, I definitely don’t like that, but this sort of approach is rare for them and left to smaller, niche projects. As opposed to Sea of Thieves which is the only thing we still hear of Rare in years. In fairness, I don’t think it’s an excuse, but I’ll lament the loss of Sea of Thieves far more than those other games, especially considering I can still play Mario, F-Zero and Tetris regardless.
Microsoft and Sony responding to market forces is exactly why I want Nintendo out of their hands. Because if those two get a pass to rip off the player, they won’t even hesitate. Look at Microsoft did to Forza. Bungie is now Sony’s and look at what Destiny 2 is like. The market often leans towards cheap profiteering. Nintendo is maybe overly self-important, and for that reason it keeps trying to deliver quality with a self-respect that other companies are already shoving out of the door. With the exception of Pokémon, a Nintendo game is guaranteed to be a good game and a complete package.
Tears of the Kingdom is a marvel of engineering and losing sight of that because it’s not running on the most powerful gaming hardware is a huge disservice to the work put into it.
I’m sure it would be a marvel of engineering if they got it working on the 3DS running at 15 FPS in 120p, but I don’t find it acceptable to play at those specs either. They can put all sorts of work into making something unacceptable. If it sucks, it sucks. I frequently don’t care about the biggest AAA releases, and it’s not a requirement that every game I play pushes hardware to its limits. However, I do care about responsive controls, playing where I’m comfortable, and not having to squint to tell what I’m looking at. Making a game of the scope they targeted isn’t comfortable for me on the only hardware they allow it to run on.
Both Animal Crossing and Smash Ultimate too, like I said, the online is disappointing, but they are still excellent games both single-player and couch multiplayer. To call it “poor quality” and “unacceptable”? If you really mean it then I just don’t trust your opinion.
What is there to trust? It’s my opinion, not yours, and you’ve played those games yourself to form your own opinion. Maybe you don’t care about a best-case input delay of 6 frames in Smash or that extremely common actions in Animal Crossing that you’ll be doing hundreds of times are made more tedious and add more downtime, but it has a huge effect on me and mine.
Market forces are currently driving a lot of games toward live service, planned obsolescence, and all that nonsense. Totally true. Bungie was fully capable of making a gross live service even when they weren’t under pressure from Activision or Sony. But market forces are also going to eventually make them stop, as we’re finally picking up momentum on customers pushing back against this sort of thing. With or without Pokemon, Nintendo’s name on the box has never been a guarantee of a good game, and it’s not true now either.
Well, overexaggeration aside, I still appreciate many 3DS games to this day. This rush for the latest and greatest is part of what fuels planned obsolescence. Really, it feels a little inconsistent to criticize them for how they offer older games if you can’t bear a game that’s even a little bit aged.
I can grant you that Nintendo online kind of sucks but offline Nintendo games tend to be some of the most responsive, due to not letting too much realism get in the way of game feel, as well as the most readable, due to clear contrast and vibrant colors. Zelda or any other, I can tell everything apart very easily in Nintendo games, either portable or a big screen. Something games with much higher resolution often fail to do. Excessive shading and clutter often gets in the way of readability in the Sony games I played, no matter how much more defined objects look.
I even agree preference-wise with the Animal Crossing criticism, making bait is kind of a chore, but I also understand that the game’s design is deliberately intended to slow the player down. It is a chill game to take it easy, not a game to rush and optimize everything. This is not a flaw, it’s a difference in intent. This is what I believe weakens your arguments the most, you can’t seem to diferentiate from something you don’t like and something done badly.
Something I dislike is bad. I dislike things because I subjectively find them to be bad. But don’t confuse poor performance with being old. We’ve done 60 FPS long before 2017, but they didn’t make it a priority for Zelda. They didn’t even seem to care about making sure 30 FPS was stable. The game they made is too big for that hardware to ever hit that metric, or the native 720p that the Switch supports. Metroid Dread, on the other hand, doesn’t break a sweat.
This is not a flaw, it’s a difference in intent.
It’s objectively a flaw in an interactive game to remove interactivity for a minute and a half on a frequent occurrence like someone joining or leaving an island, and I think you’d have a hard time finding someone who thinks manually crafting the same item 30 times in a row rather than being able to do it in bulk is somehow better for the vibe the game is going. It’s not my preference for weapons to break as quickly as they do in Zelda, but at least I understand why they made that choice, and it’s not a fault of the quality of the software. It would be objectively better for Smash Ultimate to have less input delay and be more responsive. People have measured it at 6 frames, and Street Fighter V had a rough time back when it had 8. 3 or 4 is manageable. The most responsive fighting games have 1 or 2.
I dislike good things. I dislike Dark Souls, a game made with vision and care that a lot of people love, because to me it looks ugly, feels clunky and just utterly miserable. But sometimes you have to understand that things are not made for you specifically. Yeah, subjectively it is bad for me, but it’s also good overall, no matter what I feel about it.
If Tears of the Kingdom was a native 1080p 60 fps game, it wouldn’t have a whole system of physics-based interactive modular devices. Game developers are amazed that Nintendo even managed to get such complex systems running. Of course it’s more demanding than Metroid Dread, does anything in it even remotely compare? That game doesn’t even need to render distant landscapes, it’s all small rooms and predetermined backgrounds. Do you think that was a lack of wanting to make it happen?
Maybe if a new console comes along and it’s ported to that it will run better and look better, but for now, everything it can do comes at a cost.
I already acknowledged and agreed with you that Nintendo’s online is bad. But there’s more to those games than that. Aside that aspect though, what about Smash’s gameplay, visuals, music? It’s not like that game is only playable online, and thank goodness for that.
What about the variety and detail of Animal Crafting’s clothing and furniture, or the behaviors of the villagers, or how customizable is the island this time around?
I dislike good things. I dislike Dark Souls, a game made with vision and care that a lot of people love, because to me it looks ugly, feels clunky and just utterly miserable.
Ugly, clunky feeling, miserable games are things you’d find to be bad. You don’t have to acknowledge that other people like it if you find it to be bad. You can just say you think it’s bad, at least with a clarification of why, or understand that when I say something is bad, it doesn’t mean you can’t like it, especially since I clarified why. I’m not obligated to say that something is good just because other people like it.
If Tears of the Kingdom was a native 1080p 60 fps game, it wouldn’t have a whole system of physics-based interactive modular devices.
It could on hardware that they don’t legally allow me to run it on! And that they don’t let me do so is bad.
Of course it’s more demanding than Metroid Dread, does anything in it even remotely compare? That game doesn’t even need to render distant landscapes, it’s all small rooms and predetermined backgrounds. Do you think that was a lack of wanting to make it happen?
No, I said that it was for lack of designing a game that can run well on the hardware they restricted themselves to. And if we were still in the 2017 world where the Switch is the only way to play a game that demanding portably, or even here in 2023 where it would be the cheapest way to play a game that demanding portably, it would be acceptable, but not when it’s the only way to play the game at all.
I love Smash. But I also don’t live in a dorm room anymore, and online is the primary use case for most fighting games. I go to locals, but if I get my ass beat at a local and go home to practice, my way to practice it is to go online, and its online sucks. Having bad online in a multiplayer game these days is about as bad as not having subtitles in a story-driven game or missing any other standard feature. The input delay is also rough even when you play locally.
I’m not the target market for Animal Crossing, so don’t worry about what I think of it. My girlfriend was the one who played it. I played that first one on the Gamecube, and even back then I eventually became a little grossed out by how they wanted to make that game a habit like mobile games do today by making you afraid of weeds piling up. I do feel pretty confident in evaluating how bad those two aspects are when I could frequently walk through the living room and see the same few flaws over and over again.
It could on hardware that they don’t legally allow me to run it on! And that they don’t let me do so is bad.
If Nintendo games weren’t trying to sell you on a console, do you really think they’d be trying so hard?
I’m old enough to remember the Dreamcast era Sega and their output after that. Sega’s software teams went fucking hard trying to create awesome new experiences that you could only get on Sega’s console. Their output quality dropped considerably and they played it boringly safe after they dropped out of the console market.
It’s interesting that your example is Dreamcast, because while every company that doesn’t put out a console also has an incentive to make great games, this also shows that making great games isn’t enough.
Kind of. A big part of Sega’s situation is that they shot their reputation in the ass with a 12 gauge in the mid 90s. They were pumping out platforms left, right and center only to discontinue them within a year or two (Sega CD, 32X, Saturn).
Nintendo have been very careful not to make the same mistakes, but even then a lot of people initially had little faith in the Switch because of the WiiU. Even Gamefreak didn’t want to release Pokémon games for Switch initially.
As for other companies, their goal is to make titles that sell well on the platforms it releases on. They can afford to rely almost completely on what has come before, all they need to do is do it well.
The goal of a first party game is to sell itself and the platform. So they need to be doing things that other games aren’t, in order to sell the idea of ‘you can only get this experience with platform X’.
You are not logged in. However you can subscribe from another Fediverse account, for example Lemmy or Mastodon. To do this, paste the following into the search field of your instance: !gaming@beehaw.org
From video gaming to card games and stuff in between, if it’s gaming you can probably discuss it here!
Please Note: Gaming memes are permitted to be posted on Meme Mondays, but will otherwise be removed in an effort to allow other discussions to take place.
C’mon, I can’t take it seriously if you are going to overblow it like this. Tears of the Kingdom is a marvel of engineering and losing sight of that because it’s not running on the most powerful gaming hardware is a huge disservice to the work put into it. It’s a superficial way to judge them and it only makes me give less credit to your opinion. It just make you sound like the sort of gamer who would prefer a hyper-realistic generic game running at 4K 60 FPS than anything with passion, who has no appreciation for a more modest game that is finely crafted.
Both Animal Crossing and Smash Ultimate too, like I said, the online is disappointing, but they are still excellent games both single-player and couch multiplayer. To call it “poor quality” and “unacceptable”? If you really mean it then I just don’t trust your opinion. Listing such a small nitpick as Animal Crossing’s UX in that is downright silly. All of these games are fun, beautiful and even technically impressive for a limited hardware like this.
This is not me being a blind fan. I have played plenty of Animal Crossing and I’ve seen those issues. There are things in it that I’d wish were expanded or brought back from previous entries, but I can put that into perspective, considering how much content in it is new or much more polished than before. To deem it “unacceptable” because of that, the person must not have played any real bad games.
I’m not keen on it but I’m also not overly concerned about how Nintendo offers older games now because I know how to get them. And so does anyone who really care about this really. As for Mario 35, I definitely don’t like that, but this sort of approach is rare for them and left to smaller, niche projects. As opposed to Sea of Thieves which is the only thing we still hear of Rare in years. In fairness, I don’t think it’s an excuse, but I’ll lament the loss of Sea of Thieves far more than those other games, especially considering I can still play Mario, F-Zero and Tetris regardless.
Microsoft and Sony responding to market forces is exactly why I want Nintendo out of their hands. Because if those two get a pass to rip off the player, they won’t even hesitate. Look at Microsoft did to Forza. Bungie is now Sony’s and look at what Destiny 2 is like. The market often leans towards cheap profiteering. Nintendo is maybe overly self-important, and for that reason it keeps trying to deliver quality with a self-respect that other companies are already shoving out of the door. With the exception of Pokémon, a Nintendo game is guaranteed to be a good game and a complete package.
I’m sure it would be a marvel of engineering if they got it working on the 3DS running at 15 FPS in 120p, but I don’t find it acceptable to play at those specs either. They can put all sorts of work into making something unacceptable. If it sucks, it sucks. I frequently don’t care about the biggest AAA releases, and it’s not a requirement that every game I play pushes hardware to its limits. However, I do care about responsive controls, playing where I’m comfortable, and not having to squint to tell what I’m looking at. Making a game of the scope they targeted isn’t comfortable for me on the only hardware they allow it to run on.
What is there to trust? It’s my opinion, not yours, and you’ve played those games yourself to form your own opinion. Maybe you don’t care about a best-case input delay of 6 frames in Smash or that extremely common actions in Animal Crossing that you’ll be doing hundreds of times are made more tedious and add more downtime, but it has a huge effect on me and mine.
Market forces are currently driving a lot of games toward live service, planned obsolescence, and all that nonsense. Totally true. Bungie was fully capable of making a gross live service even when they weren’t under pressure from Activision or Sony. But market forces are also going to eventually make them stop, as we’re finally picking up momentum on customers pushing back against this sort of thing. With or without Pokemon, Nintendo’s name on the box has never been a guarantee of a good game, and it’s not true now either.
Well, overexaggeration aside, I still appreciate many 3DS games to this day. This rush for the latest and greatest is part of what fuels planned obsolescence. Really, it feels a little inconsistent to criticize them for how they offer older games if you can’t bear a game that’s even a little bit aged.
I can grant you that Nintendo online kind of sucks but offline Nintendo games tend to be some of the most responsive, due to not letting too much realism get in the way of game feel, as well as the most readable, due to clear contrast and vibrant colors. Zelda or any other, I can tell everything apart very easily in Nintendo games, either portable or a big screen. Something games with much higher resolution often fail to do. Excessive shading and clutter often gets in the way of readability in the Sony games I played, no matter how much more defined objects look.
I even agree preference-wise with the Animal Crossing criticism, making bait is kind of a chore, but I also understand that the game’s design is deliberately intended to slow the player down. It is a chill game to take it easy, not a game to rush and optimize everything. This is not a flaw, it’s a difference in intent. This is what I believe weakens your arguments the most, you can’t seem to diferentiate from something you don’t like and something done badly.
Something I dislike is bad. I dislike things because I subjectively find them to be bad. But don’t confuse poor performance with being old. We’ve done 60 FPS long before 2017, but they didn’t make it a priority for Zelda. They didn’t even seem to care about making sure 30 FPS was stable. The game they made is too big for that hardware to ever hit that metric, or the native 720p that the Switch supports. Metroid Dread, on the other hand, doesn’t break a sweat.
It’s objectively a flaw in an interactive game to remove interactivity for a minute and a half on a frequent occurrence like someone joining or leaving an island, and I think you’d have a hard time finding someone who thinks manually crafting the same item 30 times in a row rather than being able to do it in bulk is somehow better for the vibe the game is going. It’s not my preference for weapons to break as quickly as they do in Zelda, but at least I understand why they made that choice, and it’s not a fault of the quality of the software. It would be objectively better for Smash Ultimate to have less input delay and be more responsive. People have measured it at 6 frames, and Street Fighter V had a rough time back when it had 8. 3 or 4 is manageable. The most responsive fighting games have 1 or 2.
I dislike good things. I dislike Dark Souls, a game made with vision and care that a lot of people love, because to me it looks ugly, feels clunky and just utterly miserable. But sometimes you have to understand that things are not made for you specifically. Yeah, subjectively it is bad for me, but it’s also good overall, no matter what I feel about it.
If Tears of the Kingdom was a native 1080p 60 fps game, it wouldn’t have a whole system of physics-based interactive modular devices. Game developers are amazed that Nintendo even managed to get such complex systems running. Of course it’s more demanding than Metroid Dread, does anything in it even remotely compare? That game doesn’t even need to render distant landscapes, it’s all small rooms and predetermined backgrounds. Do you think that was a lack of wanting to make it happen?
Maybe if a new console comes along and it’s ported to that it will run better and look better, but for now, everything it can do comes at a cost.
I already acknowledged and agreed with you that Nintendo’s online is bad. But there’s more to those games than that. Aside that aspect though, what about Smash’s gameplay, visuals, music? It’s not like that game is only playable online, and thank goodness for that.
What about the variety and detail of Animal Crafting’s clothing and furniture, or the behaviors of the villagers, or how customizable is the island this time around?
Ugly, clunky feeling, miserable games are things you’d find to be bad. You don’t have to acknowledge that other people like it if you find it to be bad. You can just say you think it’s bad, at least with a clarification of why, or understand that when I say something is bad, it doesn’t mean you can’t like it, especially since I clarified why. I’m not obligated to say that something is good just because other people like it.
It could on hardware that they don’t legally allow me to run it on! And that they don’t let me do so is bad.
No, I said that it was for lack of designing a game that can run well on the hardware they restricted themselves to. And if we were still in the 2017 world where the Switch is the only way to play a game that demanding portably, or even here in 2023 where it would be the cheapest way to play a game that demanding portably, it would be acceptable, but not when it’s the only way to play the game at all.
I love Smash. But I also don’t live in a dorm room anymore, and online is the primary use case for most fighting games. I go to locals, but if I get my ass beat at a local and go home to practice, my way to practice it is to go online, and its online sucks. Having bad online in a multiplayer game these days is about as bad as not having subtitles in a story-driven game or missing any other standard feature. The input delay is also rough even when you play locally.
I’m not the target market for Animal Crossing, so don’t worry about what I think of it. My girlfriend was the one who played it. I played that first one on the Gamecube, and even back then I eventually became a little grossed out by how they wanted to make that game a habit like mobile games do today by making you afraid of weeds piling up. I do feel pretty confident in evaluating how bad those two aspects are when I could frequently walk through the living room and see the same few flaws over and over again.
If Nintendo games weren’t trying to sell you on a console, do you really think they’d be trying so hard?
I’m old enough to remember the Dreamcast era Sega and their output after that. Sega’s software teams went fucking hard trying to create awesome new experiences that you could only get on Sega’s console. Their output quality dropped considerably and they played it boringly safe after they dropped out of the console market.
It’s interesting that your example is Dreamcast, because while every company that doesn’t put out a console also has an incentive to make great games, this also shows that making great games isn’t enough.
Kind of. A big part of Sega’s situation is that they shot their reputation in the ass with a 12 gauge in the mid 90s. They were pumping out platforms left, right and center only to discontinue them within a year or two (Sega CD, 32X, Saturn).
Nintendo have been very careful not to make the same mistakes, but even then a lot of people initially had little faith in the Switch because of the WiiU. Even Gamefreak didn’t want to release Pokémon games for Switch initially.
As for other companies, their goal is to make titles that sell well on the platforms it releases on. They can afford to rely almost completely on what has come before, all they need to do is do it well.
The goal of a first party game is to sell itself and the platform. So they need to be doing things that other games aren’t, in order to sell the idea of ‘you can only get this experience with platform X’.