"I downloaded this app called Parallel Live which makes it look like you have tens of thousands of people watching. Instantly, I became the life of the party."
What? This is saying that the dudes already so detached from reality that they don’t find any women should even further detach from reality. If you are an open-minded cis dude who respects women and sees them as equal human beings you’ll have no problem finding anyone.
It seems very annoying to me when cishet dudes whine about how hard they have it. It might be true, but the problem is usually that they’ve been brought up with a misogynistic worldview and hegemonic masculinity. That’s what I referred to by calling them detached from reality.
It is like a narcissistic person telling you how hard their life is while abusing you. You can empathize with them because they sure have a hard life. But as long as they’re not self-aware and reflect on their doings, I won’t have much empathy with them. Same goes for cis men.
Narcisstic Personality Disorder is a lifelong disability with no cure. You can be a nice person with NPD. You can be a wise person with NPD. You can even be a healthy person with NPD, because disorders and illnesses are two different things. Having NPD is like having type 1 diabetes. You can live a normal life, but it’s still going to take constant attention to treat, and some stuff is always going to be just a bit harder for you. The myth that people with NPD are abusers is pseudoscientific bigotry. There are plenty of self aware people with NPD and there are plenty of non-abusers with NPD. People with NPD are most likely to be the victims of abuse compared to the abuser, but the kind of people who prey on the disabled to satisfy their own desire for cruelty don’t want you to believe that.
Oh hello, you again! Sorry, won’t discuss with you any further about this topic. Nothing new to be said and you newer replied to all the scientific studies I gave you why a high percentage of pwNPD tend to abuse others.
Nope, I disagree. I see shades of gray and have some few friends that happen to be cishet guys. But I know very few cis men that are not bigots, feel entitled, treat women like inferiors, etc.
But, do you agree with the original statement I replied to?
If you are an open-minded cis dude who respects women and sees them as equal human beings you’ll have no problem finding anyone.
It’s not always that simple. For example, I cared for my Dad 24/7 which involved a convoluted pill regime (and a series of alarms throughout the day). My social life took a real hit. There are also mental and physical health issues, as well as financial aspects.
All that said, anyone thinking this is the solution deserves to be scammed because it is hardly informed consent.
OK, let me rephrase this into “if you are … you will be as likely as cishet women to find someone to date”. My point was that cishet men may have it hard to find someone because they are not catching up with progressive and emancipatory values. There are many many heteropessimisstic or otherwise frustrated women out there searching for a guy that does not treat them like shit.
But sure, if you don’t have the capacity for a social life or for dating then obviously this won’t be as easy. My comment was a response to the premise that cishet guys have it harder in dating and that they should be allowed to scam people.
My point was that cishet men may have it hard to find someone because they are not catching up with progressive and emancipatory values.
It’s worse than that - things seem to be regressing, with a widening political divide between men and women, especially noticeable in the younger adults.
It definitely feels like the modest progress that was made is now being eroded away
Yeah, it’s pretty disheartening and even frightening. I don’t know how to educate men on feminist ideas and get them on board. And being antifeminist doesn’t even benefit them that much. There are so many men living their life miserable and ending up in jail because of their toxic masculinity and societal expectations of men. And I’m certainly interested in helping cis men get better, reconnect with their emotions and learn about emancipation. But at the same time I don’t see how people who are not cis men can do so much to really help them. We are pretty busy surviving them and supporting each other.
And being antifeminist doesn’t even benefit them that much.
The only people benefitting are those peddling the lies to disgruntled young men, partly as a grift and partly as misdirection from the real sources of their issues.
But at the same time I don’t see how much people who are not cis men can do so much to really help them.
And it shouldn’t be your job to fix young men but I am as stumped as you and I worry about people like my nephew who is early teens.
There’s !mensliberation@lemmy.ca but I don’t know if that’s not just preaching to the converted.
Yes, it is really a frustrating situation. Since you seem to be a man, maybe you can be a good example to your nephew? But well, not so easy either unfortunately :(
I’ll never understand the people that fake these kinds of things. Fake watches, fake followers, fake views, fake likes, fake jobs. Why?
What’s attractive about likes and views anyway? Why would I care that my date has 0 followers or a million followers? If anything it means they’ll constantly be busy streaming.
I remember reading a melodrama from the 1800s where the protagonist, a failed writer, makes a deal with the devil to have a bestselling book. In the second half he becomes wildly successful, but is tortured by the knowledge that he is genuinely mediocre. It always stuck with me. Reminds me of people buying Likes.
I’m a very private person. I barely use any social media where I’m not anonymous, and I wouldn’t want my wife to be famous either. So take this with a grain of salt, but I think it’s about winning the trophy. A million people like this person well enough to watch their content all the time, but they are with you? I can imagine that would be flattering to a certain kind of personality.
Being popular sounds wretched to me, but people chase it all the time.
They’re insecure and hate the real version of themselves is my interpretation. Instead of confronting that and moving forward with work to become a better person they instead put up a facade, often justifying the harm they do to the people who believe in the facade by convincing themselves that these facades are common to all people, and everyone is fake
“Maybe if I date someone who’s famous, they’ll have enough money that I won’t have to worry about paying for medical bills or groceries anymore. Gee, maybe we could even buy a house and raise kids.”
We live in a capitalist hellscape where such things are no longer taken for granted, and are now associated with the heights of success.
This seems to be sleazy conmen faking interactions with women to convince wannabe pick-up artists to pay for their app. It’s like some new circle of Hell.
Really the only trick they missed was turning it into a pyramid scheme but that might sneak in if you use the app a lot, although imagine the “success rate” on this is abysmal and a lot of users will drop out quickly.
The “thousands of people” watching your “stream” are bots. They can respond to what’s going on in the video in real time because they’re bots. Actually I technically think this would be more efficient and therefore is probably designed so that it’s only one LLM pretending to be thousands of people, but I’ll call it bots because that’s easier to visualise. The bots know what’s going on in the “stream” because they can understand what the “streamer” is saying, which means the pickup artist can put on a convincing performance to trick the mark. If it was just a recording, it wouldn’t be able to respond to novel situations caused by the mark’s behaviour.
I don’t actually know if this technology even works, but that would be the intent used to sell it to pickup artist bros.
Again, can we please not victim blame? Calling this a failure, saying that they must be “so shallow” to fall for a fame scam is analogous to saying “she was asking for it because of the way she was dressed” to a rape victim. Being a human is complicated and there are many reasons a victim can fall prey to a scam. It’s not as one dimensional as you’re painting it and regardless of how shallow a person is, no one deserves to be taken advantage of. The focus of discussion here should not be the victim, but rather the perpetrator and the fact that they are out to take advantage of others. That’s abhorrent behavior and we should keep the focus squarely on them.
I don’t want to blame just the victim, I want to blame everyone, society included.
Also I don’t think that someone’s behavior choice is comparable to their clothing choice, and I see much more than a single problem in this whole situation. It also isn’t any inherent weakness or any sort of coercion that are getting exploited, everyone is free to leave at any moment.
no one deserves to be taken advantage of
Agreed.
The problem is that everyone in this case is trying to take advantage of someone, they just differ in what they want:
one wants money
another wants sex
last one wants clout and money
We can agree that the main instigator is the seller, taking advantage of the others, but that doesn’t mean the others are completely innocent; they can’t be, or the whole scheme wouldn’t be possible in the first place.
(in a sane world, I’d expect the only one to get scammed would be the buyer… but I know that groupies are a real thing)
I think we should ask why each one of them wants what they want, and why are they ready to jump at the opportunity of taking advantage of someone else in order to get it.
Then we could ask what could be done to prevent the whole situation from being possible, at every level.
PS: in some jurisdictions, there is a “funny” situation where lying to get sex is a felony up to certain age… but once it’s between “consenting adults”, lying to get sex is perfectly fine! 😒 We could also take a look at that, how is it possible to give consent while being lied to.
I don’t think that someone’s behavior choice is comparable to their clothing choice
I completely agree, but victim blaming across choices and especially towards women and POC individuals is part of the reason we have really shitty reporting of fraudsters. Creating an environment which discourages them from speaking up is harmful to society as a whole.
everyone in this case is trying to take advantage of someone
We don’t know this, and we shouldn’t assume this of the victim. I think it’s a reasonable hypothesis, but focusing on talking about the victim here when there are actors which are clearly out to harm or take advantage of others is harmful framing. If this is a discussion you wish to have, I personally believe the appropriate framing is necessary - we must acknowledge the existing structure of power and how it silences certain people and also blames them before talking about potentially problematic behavior. But even then, it’s kind of jumping to conclusions about the victim here and I’m not so certain it’s a discussion that should even be entertained.
victim blaming across choices and especially towards women and POC individuals
I don’t know about the US, here in Spain the love scams, and fame scams, are a thing across all genders and orientations, with low reporting of scams in general being attributed mainly to shame of the victims for having fallen for a scam.
People like to think they’re smarter than most other people, and the more sure they are of that, the easier they are to fool. I think it’s no wonder they don’t want to acknowledge it afterwards.
everyone in this case is trying to take advantage of someone
We don’t know this, and we shouldn’t assume this of the victim.
I don’t see how else it could work… but I’m open to hearing alternatives?
we must acknowledge the existing structure of power and how it silences certain people and also blames them
Fair.
A relevant aspect I can think of, is the part about it being fine to lie to have sex between “consenting” adults. How can there be consent, when one or both parties are misleading the other? Sounds like an officially codified permission to abuse.
I don’t get what people see in fame or clout, it looks like lying and argument of authority to me. The fact that anyone would pursue or get influenced by either, seems to me like ingrained predisposition to getting abused (by authority figures). Not sure how much of that is inherent, and how much social.
A clearly perverse incentive in the whole scheme, is money… but that’s kind of unavoidable in any money based society.
The elephant in the room, is sex itself: how can it, on one side, make someone pay and lie for it, and on the other side be used as a bargaining chip. Is it a purely hormonal catalyst for the whole scheme, or a proxy for a power play?
On the flip side, if the genders were changed in this situation and the guy only wanted the woman because of superficial reasons like she was attractive or popular, how many people would be saying “he got what he deserves”
This is definitely one of those double standard situations. While we shouldn’t be victim blaming, I think there’s something to be said for calling out people who are willing to throw away an existing relationship or form a new relationship just because an “influencer” came up to them and they thought they were rich. And I think that’s what the poster you are responding to was getting at.
I think it’s completely fair to have an honest conversation about what could cause someone to be enticed by a large number of followers, but I don’t think that OP was making space for that conversation. It came off as victim blaming because there was no attempt at nuance or unpacking the fact that these women were targeted by a conman and that we really shouldn’t be blaming them at all.
I’m not sure about that. The only examples given in the article of this actually “working” were from people directly advertising the product. The women in the videos are quite likely to be associates or paid actors, as is the case with most of this stuff on social media. The whole concept of the product relies on the misogynistic myth that women only care about money and/or fame, so to assume the app itself is actually working is kind of implying that you believe there is some truth to that myth.
the misogynistic myth that women only care about money and/or fame
Genuiney disheartening that this shit is re-surfacing again. I remember this sentiment going about around a decade ago, and then subsiding. Now it’s resurfacing. Every generation loves to repeat the mistakes of it’s past
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Good for them. Dating apps are a nightmare for dudes. These days, and if someone is impressed by this, fair play.
What? This is saying that the dudes already so detached from reality that they don’t find any women should even further detach from reality. If you are an open-minded cis dude who respects women and sees them as equal human beings you’ll have no problem finding anyone.
Well that’s definitely an… interpretation of what @BruceTwarzen@kbin.social wrote.
Anti Commercial-AI license
Why do you label the link “Anti Commerical-AI licence” instead of “CC BY-NC-SA 4.0” as it is titled?
Because people keep asking what the license is for.
Anti Commercial-AI license
It seems very annoying to me when cishet dudes whine about how hard they have it. It might be true, but the problem is usually that they’ve been brought up with a misogynistic worldview and hegemonic masculinity. That’s what I referred to by calling them detached from reality.
It is like a narcissistic person telling you how hard their life is while abusing you. You can empathize with them because they sure have a hard life. But as long as they’re not self-aware and reflect on their doings, I won’t have much empathy with them. Same goes for cis men.
Narcisstic Personality Disorder is a lifelong disability with no cure. You can be a nice person with NPD. You can be a wise person with NPD. You can even be a healthy person with NPD, because disorders and illnesses are two different things. Having NPD is like having type 1 diabetes. You can live a normal life, but it’s still going to take constant attention to treat, and some stuff is always going to be just a bit harder for you. The myth that people with NPD are abusers is pseudoscientific bigotry. There are plenty of self aware people with NPD and there are plenty of non-abusers with NPD. People with NPD are most likely to be the victims of abuse compared to the abuser, but the kind of people who prey on the disabled to satisfy their own desire for cruelty don’t want you to believe that.
Oh hello, you again! Sorry, won’t discuss with you any further about this topic. Nothing new to be said and you newer replied to all the scientific studies I gave you why a high percentage of pwNPD tend to abuse others.
Wow… you are way too deep into whatever it is you’re into and are currently unable to see the shades of gray.
Anti Commercial-AI license
Nope, I disagree. I see shades of gray and have some few friends that happen to be cishet guys. But I know very few cis men that are not bigots, feel entitled, treat women like inferiors, etc.
But, do you agree with the original statement I replied to?
It’s not always that simple. For example, I cared for my Dad 24/7 which involved a convoluted pill regime (and a series of alarms throughout the day). My social life took a real hit. There are also mental and physical health issues, as well as financial aspects.
All that said, anyone thinking this is the solution deserves to be scammed because it is hardly informed consent.
OK, let me rephrase this into “if you are … you will be as likely as cishet women to find someone to date”. My point was that cishet men may have it hard to find someone because they are not catching up with progressive and emancipatory values. There are many many heteropessimisstic or otherwise frustrated women out there searching for a guy that does not treat them like shit.
But sure, if you don’t have the capacity for a social life or for dating then obviously this won’t be as easy. My comment was a response to the premise that cishet guys have it harder in dating and that they should be allowed to scam people.
It’s worse than that - things seem to be regressing, with a widening political divide between men and women, especially noticeable in the younger adults.
It definitely feels like the modest progress that was made is now being eroded away
Yeah, it’s pretty disheartening and even frightening. I don’t know how to educate men on feminist ideas and get them on board. And being antifeminist doesn’t even benefit them that much. There are so many men living their life miserable and ending up in jail because of their toxic masculinity and societal expectations of men. And I’m certainly interested in helping cis men get better, reconnect with their emotions and learn about emancipation. But at the same time I don’t see how people who are not cis men can do so much to really help them. We are pretty busy surviving them and supporting each other.
The only people benefitting are those peddling the lies to disgruntled young men, partly as a grift and partly as misdirection from the real sources of their issues.
And it shouldn’t be your job to fix young men but I am as stumped as you and I worry about people like my nephew who is early teens.
There’s !mensliberation@lemmy.ca but I don’t know if that’s not just preaching to the converted.
Yes, it is really a frustrating situation. Since you seem to be a man, maybe you can be a good example to your nephew? But well, not so easy either unfortunately :(
FYI the german word for “emotion triggered by a combination of sad, funny and stupid dystopia” is “Traludystopieunglücklichkomik”.
ChatGPT told me.
There is definitely some german in that word!
I’ll never understand the people that fake these kinds of things. Fake watches, fake followers, fake views, fake likes, fake jobs. Why?
What’s attractive about likes and views anyway? Why would I care that my date has 0 followers or a million followers? If anything it means they’ll constantly be busy streaming.
I remember reading a melodrama from the 1800s where the protagonist, a failed writer, makes a deal with the devil to have a bestselling book. In the second half he becomes wildly successful, but is tortured by the knowledge that he is genuinely mediocre. It always stuck with me. Reminds me of people buying Likes.
I’m a very private person. I barely use any social media where I’m not anonymous, and I wouldn’t want my wife to be famous either. So take this with a grain of salt, but I think it’s about winning the trophy. A million people like this person well enough to watch their content all the time, but they are with you? I can imagine that would be flattering to a certain kind of personality.
Being popular sounds wretched to me, but people chase it all the time.
They’re insecure and hate the real version of themselves is my interpretation. Instead of confronting that and moving forward with work to become a better person they instead put up a facade, often justifying the harm they do to the people who believe in the facade by convincing themselves that these facades are common to all people, and everyone is fake
It’s because there are people who care about those things. There are people who are impressed by popularity, social status, etc.
Anti Commercial-AI license
“Maybe if I date someone who’s famous, they’ll have enough money that I won’t have to worry about paying for medical bills or groceries anymore. Gee, maybe we could even buy a house and raise kids.”
We live in a capitalist hellscape where such things are no longer taken for granted, and are now associated with the heights of success.
This seems to be sleazy conmen faking interactions with women to convince wannabe pick-up artists to pay for their app. It’s like some new circle of Hell.
big buy my bootcamp about selling bootcamps vibes
Really the only trick they missed was turning it into a pyramid scheme but that might sneak in if you use the app a lot, although imagine the “success rate” on this is abysmal and a lot of users will drop out quickly.
For those who don’t want to read the article but do want to understand what it’s about:
The creator of this app is a misogynist scumbag who edits interviews with journalists to erase criticism and promote his app.
Why do you even need AI for this?
The “thousands of people” watching your “stream” are bots. They can respond to what’s going on in the video in real time because they’re bots. Actually I technically think this would be more efficient and therefore is probably designed so that it’s only one LLM pretending to be thousands of people, but I’ll call it bots because that’s easier to visualise. The bots know what’s going on in the “stream” because they can understand what the “streamer” is saying, which means the pickup artist can put on a convincing performance to trick the mark. If it was just a recording, it wouldn’t be able to respond to novel situations caused by the mark’s behaviour.
I don’t actually know if this technology even works, but that would be the intent used to sell it to pickup artist bros.
More like “con artist”.
This has little to do with picking up, it could as well be used to scam anyone out of anything.
The women who would be impressed by this probably deserve the men who do it.
This boy is purposefully being misleading about himself - he is presenting a con. We shouldn’t be victim blaming.
Isn’t the presumption here that if she is only interested in his money that she also plans to take advantage of him?
We cannot possibly know her intentions. We do know his intentions. Please stop shifting focus away from the person actively causing harm here.
Her intentions were as clear as his in that video as far as I could see.
Honestly, I’m having a hard time not blaming everyone in this.
As the saying goes: “you can’t scam a honest
manperson”… but a dishonest one, oh boy, you can scam them over and over and over.Again, can we please not victim blame? Calling this a failure, saying that they must be “so shallow” to fall for a fame scam is analogous to saying “she was asking for it because of the way she was dressed” to a rape victim. Being a human is complicated and there are many reasons a victim can fall prey to a scam. It’s not as one dimensional as you’re painting it and regardless of how shallow a person is, no one deserves to be taken advantage of. The focus of discussion here should not be the victim, but rather the perpetrator and the fact that they are out to take advantage of others. That’s abhorrent behavior and we should keep the focus squarely on them.
I don’t want to blame just the victim, I want to blame everyone, society included.
Also I don’t think that someone’s behavior choice is comparable to their clothing choice, and I see much more than a single problem in this whole situation. It also isn’t any inherent weakness or any sort of coercion that are getting exploited, everyone is free to leave at any moment.
Agreed.
The problem is that everyone in this case is trying to take advantage of someone, they just differ in what they want:
We can agree that the main instigator is the seller, taking advantage of the others, but that doesn’t mean the others are completely innocent; they can’t be, or the whole scheme wouldn’t be possible in the first place.
(in a sane world, I’d expect the only one to get scammed would be the buyer… but I know that groupies are a real thing)
I think we should ask why each one of them wants what they want, and why are they ready to jump at the opportunity of taking advantage of someone else in order to get it.
Then we could ask what could be done to prevent the whole situation from being possible, at every level.
PS: in some jurisdictions, there is a “funny” situation where lying to get sex is a felony up to certain age… but once it’s between “consenting adults”, lying to get sex is perfectly fine! 😒 We could also take a look at that, how is it possible to give consent while being lied to.
I completely agree, but victim blaming across choices and especially towards women and POC individuals is part of the reason we have really shitty reporting of fraudsters. Creating an environment which discourages them from speaking up is harmful to society as a whole.
We don’t know this, and we shouldn’t assume this of the victim. I think it’s a reasonable hypothesis, but focusing on talking about the victim here when there are actors which are clearly out to harm or take advantage of others is harmful framing. If this is a discussion you wish to have, I personally believe the appropriate framing is necessary - we must acknowledge the existing structure of power and how it silences certain people and also blames them before talking about potentially problematic behavior. But even then, it’s kind of jumping to conclusions about the victim here and I’m not so certain it’s a discussion that should even be entertained.
I don’t know about the US, here in Spain the love scams, and fame scams, are a thing across all genders and orientations, with low reporting of scams in general being attributed mainly to shame of the victims for having fallen for a scam.
People like to think they’re smarter than most other people, and the more sure they are of that, the easier they are to fool. I think it’s no wonder they don’t want to acknowledge it afterwards.
I don’t see how else it could work… but I’m open to hearing alternatives?
Fair.
A relevant aspect I can think of, is the part about it being fine to lie to have sex between “consenting” adults. How can there be consent, when one or both parties are misleading the other? Sounds like an officially codified permission to abuse.
I don’t get what people see in fame or clout, it looks like lying and argument of authority to me. The fact that anyone would pursue or get influenced by either, seems to me like ingrained predisposition to getting abused (by authority figures). Not sure how much of that is inherent, and how much social.
A clearly perverse incentive in the whole scheme, is money… but that’s kind of unavoidable in any money based society.
The elephant in the room, is sex itself: how can it, on one side, make someone pay and lie for it, and on the other side be used as a bargaining chip. Is it a purely hormonal catalyst for the whole scheme, or a proxy for a power play?
On the flip side, if the genders were changed in this situation and the guy only wanted the woman because of superficial reasons like she was attractive or popular, how many people would be saying “he got what he deserves”
This is definitely one of those double standard situations. While we shouldn’t be victim blaming, I think there’s something to be said for calling out people who are willing to throw away an existing relationship or form a new relationship just because an “influencer” came up to them and they thought they were rich. And I think that’s what the poster you are responding to was getting at.
I think it’s completely fair to have an honest conversation about what could cause someone to be enticed by a large number of followers, but I don’t think that OP was making space for that conversation. It came off as victim blaming because there was no attempt at nuance or unpacking the fact that these women were targeted by a conman and that we really shouldn’t be blaming them at all.
Title is misleading: they seem to be succeeding at it, not just “hitting on” women. Its alarming, not just sad and disgusting.
Everything old is new again. As long as there have been bars, there have been sleezy men lying to impress women in bars.
I’m not sure about that. The only examples given in the article of this actually “working” were from people directly advertising the product. The women in the videos are quite likely to be associates or paid actors, as is the case with most of this stuff on social media. The whole concept of the product relies on the misogynistic myth that women only care about money and/or fame, so to assume the app itself is actually working is kind of implying that you believe there is some truth to that myth.
Genuiney disheartening that this shit is re-surfacing again. I remember this sentiment going about around a decade ago, and then subsiding. Now it’s resurfacing. Every generation loves to repeat the mistakes of it’s past
Here’s hoping you’re right.