Linux has been having issues for a few years now. They’ve been going an obfuscation route with GNOME3 and systemd. Red hat basically decided to contractually kick people out for doing the traditional CentOS thing ever since they decided to change what the official CentOS does.
The worst thing is, Debian also started using systemd.
Huh? All I was saying was that someone who’s brand new to Linux is going to be up to their eyeballs in their new system to barely comprehend the very concept of an init system, especially on the more polished, user friendly distro that do a good job of keeping those mechanisms under the hood.
I see what people thought I was saying. Yes, it’s open source and doesn’t taint the kernel. I’m saying the way it works is obfuscated or complicated for the user. You shouldn’t have to run binaries to figure what the logs say. The logs should be in text.
As a selfhoster, the way systemd does logs is great, I love it.
Oh, and also if you want you can tell systemd to save the logs to files, it’s an option
While its possible to find or build a distro without systemd, most of the big names that you would introduce people to use it:
Ubuntu, Debian, Red Hat, Fedora, OpenSUSE
Hell, Arch uses it
I do get your point about GNOME, and I don’t use a DE anymore so I might be outdated, but Gnome and KDE were the big two back when I used it.
I say obfuscates because gnome configuration is now largely binary, whereas gnome2 used to be text files. The same goes for systemd- the logs are now binary files with journalctl instead of text files
Oh no, not binary files that are well-documented and you can know exactly what they’re doing!
Also, the journalctl files are just text with useful markers embedded in them to be easier to filter and search. Run strings on the journal files and see they’re just text with metadata in them.
You… do realize that’s what Free software is about, right? Gnome, systemd, etc, ARE Free software. They’re created by tons of people and tons of other people look over the code so you don’t have to. The number of people who cannot understand this boggles my mind. Sure, errors and rare malicious things slip through, but not nearly at the rate of the average garbageware you run on other OSes.
Doesn’t sound sarcastic. You need to learn how to make something sound more sarcastic online, we can’t see your face or hear your vocal inflection, remember.
Or, you were just wrong, saw me correct you, and decided “lol, oh, no, I wasn’t wrong, just being SARCASTIC!!!1”. Sigh.
I think you are either trolling or you fundamentally don’t understand, what you’re talking about.
Nothing is obfuscated. You can download each and every code file, audit it, and build the binaries from exactly that code. You can even compare the binaries to the ones provided by major distros thanks to reproducible builds.
Just because you don’t understand code, doesn’t mean it’s obfuscated. Following that logic, even a loaf of bread is “obfuscated” because you don’t understand sour dough.
That’s not what I’m saying. Yes, it’s open source and you can build the binaries itself. I’m saying that the process is obfuscated or complicated because instead of text log files, you have to use journtalctl to view them.
Then again, someone said it may be text files with markers so I have to look into that
Are you really sure, you’re using “obfuscation” right? Because that implies that someone intentionally makes something harder to read to hide something. That’s not the case here. Nothing is hidden, it’s all there, the formats are well defined and easy to read.
Yeah, of course, it’s all there in binary. For programs of course that’s not a problem, but for data that you may need to look at any time, it is. It’s harder to interpret both for humans (significantly) and both for any program that want to make use of it (unless they use the specific library that came up with the format, and by that also pulling in all its libs transitively)
Binary data is not much less obfuscated than the system files of windows. It’s all there, you can read it
I think patents are stupid and if you invent something good you should be able to sell it at whatever price you feel like, and if I copy what you did and sell it cheaper, that’s on you. Try to make it better and cheaper next time. Or find your premium market, or find your ‘the original creator’ market, or receive donations, or etc…
But make it illegal to copy? That’s just a pussy move.
Bro when you do research for 5 years on a product, put it out at a price that gives you back the research costs within a reasonable time and then someone comes, steals your product and sells ot for basically nothing because they produce in slave labor china that’s not just bad thats going to kill innovation and destroy the market.
True, Linux isn’t free because it uses electricity. It’s free because it’s licensed under the GNU General Public License which is designed to defend the freedom of its users.
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I have to disagree, Windows is never free, they sell all your data even when you buy it. Use Linux.
Except you can simply debloat and disable everything with a single script. Linuxbros are the biggest misinformation spreaders around windows.
Bro defending Windows like a toddler that got told his toy light saber is actually just a stick…
I can uninstall the kernel and the bootloader while you people cannot actually remove the fucking Edge browser…
Congrats.
Linux has been having issues for a few years now. They’ve been going an obfuscation route with GNOME3 and systemd. Red hat basically decided to contractually kick people out for doing the traditional CentOS thing ever since they decided to change what the official CentOS does.
The worst thing is, Debian also started using systemd.
me when i spread misinformation on the internet
There are plenty of distributions without systemd — https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Linux_distributions_without_systemd
Yes, I am aware. But none of these distros are distros I would introduce to someone new to Linux.
If any of the people you introduce to linux would care about systemd
Or have any clue what systemd does out of the gate, especially on a more user-friendly distro having never used linux
That’s a bad point. What that logic introducing someone to windows is not bad because they don’t know about it’s data mining components anyway.
I’m not saying systemd does that. I’m saying that you basically said: “they wouldn’t know even if that was true, so it’s fine!”
Huh? All I was saying was that someone who’s brand new to Linux is going to be up to their eyeballs in their new system to barely comprehend the very concept of an init system, especially on the more polished, user friendly distro that do a good job of keeping those mechanisms under the hood.
The way I understood was that it’s not a problem if the system does something bad because the newcomer I directed there won’t know anyway.
Sorry if that is not what you meant, but the comment has read like that.
Ok, fine. You got me there
systemd doesn’t obfuscate shit. It’s Free software and you know exactly what it’s doing. Stop spreading misinformation.
I see what people thought I was saying. Yes, it’s open source and doesn’t taint the kernel. I’m saying the way it works is obfuscated or complicated for the user. You shouldn’t have to run binaries to figure what the logs say. The logs should be in text.
As a selfhoster, the way systemd does logs is great, I love it. Oh, and also if you want you can tell systemd to save the logs to files, it’s an option
Please advise on the second portion.
See this
I e never done this but it should work. https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/321709/redirect-systemd-service-logs-to-file
No, systemd and GNOME are not part of mainline, and also GNOME and systemd arent obfuscated
While its possible to find or build a distro without systemd, most of the big names that you would introduce people to use it:
Ubuntu, Debian, Red Hat, Fedora, OpenSUSE
Hell, Arch uses it
I do get your point about GNOME, and I don’t use a DE anymore so I might be outdated, but Gnome and KDE were the big two back when I used it.
I say obfuscates because gnome configuration is now largely binary, whereas gnome2 used to be text files. The same goes for systemd- the logs are now binary files with journalctl instead of text files
Oh no, not binary files that are well-documented and you can know exactly what they’re doing!
Also, the journalctl files are just text with useful markers embedded in them to be easier to filter and search. Run strings on the journal files and see they’re just text with metadata in them.
You must compile every single software package from source, but only after you’ve examined every single line of the code yourself!
1995 called, they said you’re doing it wrong, and RMS is going to be very mad at you.
1995 calling would be telling you you need to roll your own kernel to be efficient on your 486
You… do realize that’s what Free software is about, right? Gnome, systemd, etc, ARE Free software. They’re created by tons of people and tons of other people look over the code so you don’t have to. The number of people who cannot understand this boggles my mind. Sure, errors and rare malicious things slip through, but not nearly at the rate of the average garbageware you run on other OSes.
Stop spreading misinformation.
Not very keen on sarcasm, are we?
Doesn’t sound sarcastic. You need to learn how to make something sound more sarcastic online, we can’t see your face or hear your vocal inflection, remember.
Or, you were just wrong, saw me correct you, and decided “lol, oh, no, I wasn’t wrong, just being SARCASTIC!!!1”. Sigh.
I didn’t know that the are text files with markers…
If that’s true, I may hate it less. I’ll have to try that
I think you are either trolling or you fundamentally don’t understand, what you’re talking about.
Nothing is obfuscated. You can download each and every code file, audit it, and build the binaries from exactly that code. You can even compare the binaries to the ones provided by major distros thanks to reproducible builds.
Just because you don’t understand code, doesn’t mean it’s obfuscated. Following that logic, even a loaf of bread is “obfuscated” because you don’t understand sour dough.
That’s not what I’m saying. Yes, it’s open source and you can build the binaries itself. I’m saying that the process is obfuscated or complicated because instead of text log files, you have to use journtalctl to view them.
Then again, someone said it may be text files with markers so I have to look into that
Are you really sure, you’re using “obfuscation” right? Because that implies that someone intentionally makes something harder to read to hide something. That’s not the case here. Nothing is hidden, it’s all there, the formats are well defined and easy to read.
Yeah, of course, it’s all there in binary. For programs of course that’s not a problem, but for data that you may need to look at any time, it is. It’s harder to interpret both for humans (significantly) and both for any program that want to make use of it (unless they use the specific library that came up with the format, and by that also pulling in all its libs transitively)
Binary data is not much less obfuscated than the system files of windows. It’s all there, you can read it
So literally every program on your machine is obfuscated. Linux kernel? Obfuscated. Wayland? Obfuscated. And even VIM: obfuscated.
You’re creating problems where there are none.
I’m not sure I totally agree with him, what I’m sure is that I don’t agree with you, because you clearly haven’t read his comment.
“…because you don’t understand sourdough”
Made me spit up my coffee.
What the fuck are you talking about, systemd isn’t doing anything wrong.
Linux isn’t free because it uses your electricity
Technically… it’s the hardware on your PC using all the electricity.
Yeah but it’s the software that told it to do it.
Not initially, it’s an on off switch… technically.
At some point it was a twinkle in Charles Babbage’s eyes 👀:-D.
Those sneaky bastards.
Well… Unless you hook it up to your neighbors outlet…
That doesn’t make it free. Somebody else is paying.
Uhmm its free for you… This is a piracy sub. Someone is always paying for something.
I love piracy.
I think patents are stupid and if you invent something good you should be able to sell it at whatever price you feel like, and if I copy what you did and sell it cheaper, that’s on you. Try to make it better and cheaper next time. Or find your premium market, or find your ‘the original creator’ market, or receive donations, or etc…
But make it illegal to copy? That’s just a pussy move.
Eh… For some things that might be true, but you have to take research costs into account…
No, I don’t have to. That’s too superfluous.
In jobs where you need to do researches, you just charge your time more expensive. That’s it.
Bro when you do research for 5 years on a product, put it out at a price that gives you back the research costs within a reasonable time and then someone comes, steals your product and sells ot for basically nothing because they produce in slave labor china that’s not just bad thats going to kill innovation and destroy the market.
Oh, like online piracy. Got it! 🤣
Nope. If the product is finished and you make a copy, nobody else is paying.
If you go to the store (90s style) and steal a copy, that’s a whole different thing.
Go to rental place in the 90’s/2000’s
Rent things
Copy things
Return original - No harm | Return copy - ???
Netflix DVD service is missed.
True, Linux isn’t free because it uses electricity. It’s free because it’s licensed under the GNU General Public License which is designed to defend the freedom of its users.
What? You don’t say.