Flex and grid have made CSS so easy I can’t imagine how anyone could hate it anymore. Back when everyone used float for layout, it was painful, but no sane person does that anymore.
Flash was what made me interested in the internet to begin with. Flash games back in the day were great because the barrier for entry was so low people could make all kinds of crazy stuff with it.
That’s only what people inexperienced with JavaScript say lol. I have used it for many things over the past 15 years I have been an engineer. Frontend and backend and on different client device and I love it more and more everyday. It’s just easy to use. You can still use all of the same oop patterns you would use in any other language but it’s not as strict out of the box so I guess that’s fine that people might not be aware but it’s pretty powerful now for such a high level language.
I worked on projects using C++, C#, PHP, Python and JavaScript, also Typescript. I learned programming with C. So I am at least at a professional or competent level at each of them.
The language I am most productive in is JS. There is barely any boilerplate, it is easily writeable and supports multiple paradigms. Personally I prefer Typescript and I make it a requirement for projects I lead. I use it for everything unless it is a native application in which case I use C++. Just the language features of JS, compatibility, tooling, platforms where you can run it and so on makes it easily the most useful language on the list. I don’t even consider Python, C# or Java over JS. None of them are any faster or better designed languages, except for C# and that’s mostly improved by TS.
In this thread: A lot of developers who don’t understand that my burning hatred of VBScript, and JavaScript’s subsequent redemption of my sanity - do not combine to cause me any less bunring hatred toward JavaScript.
Yes, the meme is objextively false. I was there, and none of us dressed that well.
Cliff notes for any newbies trying to navigate what to think of all this:
VBScript was deeply flawed.
JavaScript is deeply flawed.
TypeScript exists for a bunch of really good reasons.
Old programmers only bitch about new technology and old technology.
To get as much hate at JavaScript gets, it has to be useful. JavaScript is incredibly useful.
That’s such a perfect summary of VBScript. Starting array indexes at 1 was it’s vibe.
VBScript would show up for it’s first day as a construction worker in a white shirt and a tie. I loved VBScripts willingness to do messy work, but boy was it unprepared in many contexts.
Sadly, per the syntax docs on O’Reilly it doesn’t look like it can be anything but 0 or 1. That’s not to say it’s a good feature, but at least make it fun if it’s gonna be bad.
Very true. I remember vbscript. I still have to write some occasionally. What’s funny is that powershell gets all the attention & security applied to it - but vbscript likely keeps its flaws in the name of backwards compatibility. I’m betting vbscript is a huge attack vector just waiting for some major exploitation that leads to its removal or being severely gimped.
Correct. You know how JavaScript is not Java? Same thing. If memory serves me correctly there was a bit of a race to be the next Windows script language between NT4 and 2000 (to replace batch), and it was between VBScript and Kixtart (the former won out).
Yeah, everyone hates JS but that doesn’t mean the existence of JS is a curse. For a long time it has been the best at what it’s commonly used for. Otherwise no one would complain about it because no one would use it.
a lot of its quirks really do start to make sense when the whole language was essentially designed in about a weekend. a lot of my own weekend code still haunts me to this day
It’s missing a lot of things that people really care about (with good reason) like static typing. But I think a lot of dislike also comes from it being more of a functional programming language and not object oriented. I like it because it’s like scheme or lisp but with a C like syntax that I find easier to read. I also like that I can do dynamic stuff with websites. In some ways it’s the perfect scripting language for the web. Just as messy and unpredictable as html.
There are “classes” (syntatic sugar over prototyping) that allow OOP in JS, so I don’t think why people would dislike it for the lack of OOP, unless they’re using ES5.
Oh, yeah. When people discover shallow clone vs deep clone is when shit hits the fan. Though anyone that comes from a C background shouldn’t fall on those traps either way.
I hate Node and NPM so much that I have a physical reaction to just seeing the words now.
I already disliked Node & NPM quite a bit, but the hatred and disgust got to the point it is now after having to write a CI/CD pipeline in Groovy/Jenkins for a Node site that that our devs were building. I had to automate the build/deployment of Satan’s favorite framework in Satan’s favorite language. I came pretty close to quitting.
It’s out the door now, but I’m in the middle of reimplementing the pipeline in Github Actions so I don’t drink myself to death when they come knocking to do it again.
I feel like a good portion of people hate many languages, tbh. This is at least partially because they’re often forced to use them based on company mandates, rather than their own volition.
I really like Typescript, I think it’s a more smooth programming experience than raw JS or even other high level languages like Python . However, I don’t mind JavaScript as much as many other programmers so I suppose I’m a bit biased.
There are plenty of things wrong with the tool itself.
For example, there is no way to define an equality and hash function for a class, so there is no sensible way to use arbitrary data structures as Map keys.
I love javascript and how loosey goosey it is, I must be the odd one out. Then again my apps tend to be database driven so it’s mostly just a UI and very thin API layer.
I get why JavaScript can be terrible but at least there’s TypeScript.
I’d argue Python suffers from the same problems but hasn’t got anything comparable to TS for keeping types in check and can’t autoformat well because whitespace is syntactically meaningful.
In that way I think Python is worse to write maintainable code with.
In 1994, CGI back-ends were the closest thing to interactivity in the browser, and that’s far back enough that a good deal of it was written in C. Strong typing abounds!
But JavaScript was an absolute joy by comparison. Heck, even Perl CGI was a joy compared to having to write executables for every fricking thing.
Note that by JavaScript, I mean the mostly hand-crafted stuff in earlier sites, not the enormous frameworks that are in use these days.
Hear, hear!
In 1998, I did my work experience at a local ISP and was tasked with coding a backend that would create accounts for people wanting to buy an internet subscription from us.
IIS was still in beta so my boss decided I would use Linux, this new fangled language called PHP and just write a CGI in C that would do the actual creation of accounts on our server (IIRC).
I spent a few weeks on a console terminal, using vi, doing C; which was as abominable as one might expect. PHP was fucking magic, in comparison.
And on the front-end, I used a bit of JavaScript to add some interaction and reactivity and that was just fun!
Heck, seventeen years later and I still think it’s a fun language to use.
Anyway I don’t know where in was going with this… you kids don’t know how good you have it, is what I’m saying.
Kids complaining about JavaScript while I’m at work, looking at fucking COBOL, or trying to maintain C# exe that were written by somebody who clearly did not understand OOP yet underlie the entire tool chain of a 3k+ employees company.
Oh and go check out the “natural language” syntax of Macromedia Director scripting (Lingo), for your edification…
Languages are tools. Some of them are really shitty tools, for sure, but if you think JS is it, you haven’t seen anything.
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Also: CSS Also: Java applets Also: Flash
The internet has basically gone moldy overnight.
Flex and grid have made CSS so easy I can’t imagine how anyone could hate it anymore. Back when everyone used float for layout, it was painful, but no sane person does that anymore.
Flash was what made me interested in the internet to begin with. Flash games back in the day were great because the barrier for entry was so low people could make all kinds of crazy stuff with it.
Flash gives me great memories of watching Camp Chaos Monkey for President cartoons in university though. <3
That’s only what people inexperienced with JavaScript say lol. I have used it for many things over the past 15 years I have been an engineer. Frontend and backend and on different client device and I love it more and more everyday. It’s just easy to use. You can still use all of the same oop patterns you would use in any other language but it’s not as strict out of the box so I guess that’s fine that people might not be aware but it’s pretty powerful now for such a high level language.
I worked on projects using C++, C#, PHP, Python and JavaScript, also Typescript. I learned programming with C. So I am at least at a professional or competent level at each of them.
The language I am most productive in is JS. There is barely any boilerplate, it is easily writeable and supports multiple paradigms. Personally I prefer Typescript and I make it a requirement for projects I lead. I use it for everything unless it is a native application in which case I use C++. Just the language features of JS, compatibility, tooling, platforms where you can run it and so on makes it easily the most useful language on the list. I don’t even consider Python, C# or Java over JS. None of them are any faster or better designed languages, except for C# and that’s mostly improved by TS.
Forget Javascript make 2024 the year that DHTML comes back.
In this thread: A lot of developers who don’t understand that my burning hatred of VBScript, and JavaScript’s subsequent redemption of my sanity - do not combine to cause me any less bunring hatred toward JavaScript.
Yes, the meme is objextively false. I was there, and none of us dressed that well.
Cliff notes for any newbies trying to navigate what to think of all this:
When JavaScript was first released, it was a god-send. The alternative was vbscript and if you think JavaScript is bad…
All I remember about vbscript was that array indexes started at 1.
That’s such a perfect summary of VBScript. Starting array indexes at 1 was it’s vibe.
VBScript would show up for it’s first day as a construction worker in a white shirt and a tie. I loved VBScripts willingness to do messy work, but boy was it unprepared in many contexts.
I just remembered
option base 0:-)option base 42Sadly, per the syntax docs on O’Reilly it doesn’t look like it can be anything but 0 or 1. That’s not to say it’s a good feature, but at least make it fun if it’s gonna be bad.
Wow, they found something even more confusing than 1-indexing (conditional 1-indexing)
Very true. I remember vbscript. I still have to write some occasionally. What’s funny is that powershell gets all the attention & security applied to it - but vbscript likely keeps its flaws in the name of backwards compatibility. I’m betting vbscript is a huge attack vector just waiting for some major exploitation that leads to its removal or being severely gimped.
I assume vbscript is not Visual Basic? That was my first thought and I find that quite easy to grasp
Correct. You know how JavaScript is not Java? Same thing. If memory serves me correctly there was a bit of a race to be the next Windows script language between NT4 and 2000 (to replace batch), and it was between VBScript and Kixtart (the former won out).
Correct.
To get a feel for what VBScript was like, think of Visual Basic. Now throw out all the good bits and mix in a bunch of JavaScript style quirks.
Then try to parse binary data packets with it, beacuse XML isn’t widely supported and JSON has not been invented/discovered yet.
It was bad.
Yeah, everyone hates JS but that doesn’t mean the existence of JS is a curse. For a long time it has been the best at what it’s commonly used for. Otherwise no one would complain about it because no one would use it.
It’s a gross language, but then is it any worse than Lua?
a lot of its quirks really do start to make sense when the whole language was essentially designed in about a weekend. a lot of my own weekend code still haunts me to this day
Here is a random rant on JS (among other things): https://10maurycy10.github.io/misc/in_defence_of_c/
Why? lol
Yeah what’s the hate against JS? Did it steal your wife?
It’s missing a lot of things that people really care about (with good reason) like static typing. But I think a lot of dislike also comes from it being more of a functional programming language and not object oriented. I like it because it’s like scheme or lisp but with a C like syntax that I find easier to read. I also like that I can do dynamic stuff with websites. In some ways it’s the perfect scripting language for the web. Just as messy and unpredictable as html.
There are “classes” (syntatic sugar over prototyping) that allow OOP in JS, so I don’t think why people would dislike it for the lack of OOP, unless they’re using ES5.
Some would say that until you’ve played “guess whether my clone still points back to the original object” in JavaScript, you’ve never really lived.
That said, I understand I’m supposed to start using TupeScript for that, so I’ll shut up about it.
Oh, yeah. When people discover shallow clone vs deep clone is when shit hits the fan. Though anyone that comes from a C background shouldn’t fall on those traps either way.
JavaScript burned our crops, poisoned our supply, and delivered a plague unto our houses
It did?
No, but are we going to wait around until it does?
Let’s get the pitch forks and lynch that mf!
Terrible type system, terrible standard library, terrible compatibility and lack of many features, compared to C# for example.
All of those things are by design and comparing JS to a fully fledged OOP language is just the sign of a clueless developer.
The JS standard is well defined and compatibility has nothing to do with the language itself
That makes it even worse.
Lots of languages are typeless and the standard library is weak because web (NodeJS is good but
npmis shit)I hate Node and NPM so much that I have a physical reaction to just seeing the words now.
I already disliked Node & NPM quite a bit, but the hatred and disgust got to the point it is now after having to write a CI/CD pipeline in Groovy/Jenkins for a Node site that that our devs were building. I had to automate the build/deployment of Satan’s favorite framework in Satan’s favorite language. I came pretty close to quitting.
It’s out the door now, but I’m in the middle of reimplementing the pipeline in Github Actions so I don’t drink myself to death when they come knocking to do it again.
And this makes sane programmers sad.
You lost me at “compared to C#”. C# is pure garbage.
Can you elaborate on this?
I think the whole ecosystem around the language is enough to understand it sucks. The tools, the build system, etc. Plus, I don’t like Microsoft.
I mean old school Visual Studio made it restrictive in the past.
I figured with VS Code, .NET core, NuGet and stuff made it better.
I won’t fight back on MS hatred.
What’s wrong with the tools? Rider is the best IDE I’ve used, visual studio it’s that bad ether
I feel like a good portion of people hate many languages, tbh. This is at least partially because they’re often forced to use them based on company mandates, rather than their own volition.
What about Typescript? I’ve only done a little bit of frontend but TypeScript felt much more reliable than pure js
I love typescript, especially for larger projects and libraries.
I really like Typescript, I think it’s a more smooth programming experience than raw JS or even other high level languages like Python . However, I don’t mind JavaScript as much as many other programmers so I suppose I’m a bit biased.
One of my favorite languages, it’s everything that’s good about Javascript plus the one thing that’s missing: types.
Don’t blame the tool just because you lack the skill or training to use it well.
There are plenty of things wrong with the tool itself.
For example, there is no way to define an equality and hash function for a class, so there is no sensible way to use arbitrary data structures as
Mapkeys.I love javascript and how loosey goosey it is, I must be the odd one out. Then again my apps tend to be database driven so it’s mostly just a UI and very thin API layer.
I get why JavaScript can be terrible but at least there’s TypeScript. I’d argue Python suffers from the same problems but hasn’t got anything comparable to TS for keeping types in check and can’t autoformat well because whitespace is syntactically meaningful. In that way I think Python is worse to write maintainable code with.
Python has Mojo
A quick search showed me that’s mainly for AI, or can it be used for general scripting too?
I’ve made an entire website for a project off python. It’s a general purpose programming language
This. And additionally, JavaScript perhaps has one unlikely advantage: Churn for the sake of following trends.
In 1994, CGI back-ends were the closest thing to interactivity in the browser, and that’s far back enough that a good deal of it was written in C. Strong typing abounds!
But JavaScript was an absolute joy by comparison. Heck, even Perl CGI was a joy compared to having to write executables for every fricking thing.
Note that by JavaScript, I mean the mostly hand-crafted stuff in earlier sites, not the enormous frameworks that are in use these days.
Hear, hear! In 1998, I did my work experience at a local ISP and was tasked with coding a backend that would create accounts for people wanting to buy an internet subscription from us.
IIS was still in beta so my boss decided I would use Linux, this new fangled language called PHP and just write a CGI in C that would do the actual creation of accounts on our server (IIRC).
I spent a few weeks on a console terminal, using vi, doing C; which was as abominable as one might expect. PHP was fucking magic, in comparison. And on the front-end, I used a bit of JavaScript to add some interaction and reactivity and that was just fun!
Heck, seventeen years later and I still think it’s a fun language to use.
Anyway I don’t know where in was going with this… you kids don’t know how good you have it, is what I’m saying.
Kids complaining about JavaScript while I’m at work, looking at fucking COBOL, or trying to maintain C# exe that were written by somebody who clearly did not understand OOP yet underlie the entire tool chain of a 3k+ employees company.
Oh and go check out the “natural language” syntax of Macromedia Director scripting (Lingo), for your edification…
Languages are tools. Some of them are really shitty tools, for sure, but if you think JS is it, you haven’t seen anything.
JS isn’t that bad provided you just use it for frontend UI, it’s quite good at that