I don’t see a single reference to A Scanner Darkly in the comment section and I am pretty sure RFK lifted the idea from it. Then again forcing vulnerable people to do farm labor to “help” them is at least as old as slavery and native boarding schools 🤮 die worm man die
It’s very common to be misdiagnosed with depression and put on an SSRI when it’s not going to help. (SSRIs will generally not help a mood disorder like bipolar, for instance). SSRIs are highly addictive in that discontinuing them often comes with pretty severe withdrawal. So it’s not just a matter of “you can think your way out of depression” because a lot of people quit SSRIs for very good reasons - moving to a more appropriate treatment being one of them, and often it requires hospitalization because of how awful the withdrawal is, even with tapering the dose down.
I am not a fan of RFK Jr. Politically I’m a good distance to the left of liberal. But honestly, if implemented correctly this could help a whole bunch of people who are trapped on SSRIs prescribed by a doctor who didn’t really know how to diagnose them, and could also help a lot of nonviolent offenders who just need help beating their addiction. I understand that ‘if implemented correctly’ is a big ask with this administration, but let’s maybe not throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Remember these days you ran interference for RFK Jr because you were too afraid to face up to the truth of what he was actually suggesting. It is a sour feeling and I say that with experience. People said the same thing about migrant camps and family seperation at the border. They said the same about Roe v Wade. They said the same thing about random deportations. Assuming you’re being genuine I have to ask you to learn to expect the worst and merely hope for the best. This man aggressively doesn’t know what the fuck he’s talking about and when you defend him you sound the same way.
If you read this and saw me defending RFK, you misinterpreted me. I specifically said I’m not a fan.
This is what I am saying. Antidepressants are highly addictive and it doesn’t get talked about. The commenter I replied to said that this article deeply misunderstands addiction, which I interpreted to mean that the commenter doesn’t know how addictive SSRIs are. That’s not surprising, a lot of people don’t know how addictive they are. There are many valid reasons to stop taking an antidepressant, and it’s very difficult. We should do something to help those people besides force them to check into a psych ward. That’s what I said, and I meant it.
Antidepressants are highly addictive and it doesn’t get talked about
SSRIs are not addictive and almost no antidepressants have addictive qualities. Many can cause withdrawal symptoms, which is very different from addiction, and a few select agents have been misused in contexts where access to drugs are low and quality of life are low, such as prison, but this kind of use needs to be considered in context, as these individuals are desperate for escape.
Yes, antidepressants are not considered addictive by the same big pharma companies who told us that Oxycodone was not totally fine.
Honestly asking, because I don’t know. What is the difference between a physical dependence and addiction? Because there is certainly a physical dependence with SSRIs, whatever word you want to use.
If they aren’t addictive, but cause the same withdrawal symptoms which result from addiction, in some cases severely, then what should we call them? Again, I’m not trying to be snarky. If I am using the word “addiction” incorrectly I’m willing to be educated. I’m just speaking from my own experience.
Yes, antidepressants are not considered addictive by the same big pharma companies who told us that Oxycodone was not totally fine.
No, I’m talking about how researchers, who do not have conflicts of interest, have to say about these drugs.
What is the difference between a physical dependence and addiction?
Googling this will give you plenty of pages drawing the distinction between the two. For example, here’s a webmd article on the difference. In short, it’s meaningful to draw clear distinctions and definitions around where an urge is coming from. Withdrawing from a substance does not necessarily mean you desire the substance. Taking the substance to avoid withdrawal symptoms might happen because you wish to avoid the negative symptoms, and treating the symptoms could be enough to get someone off the substance causing problems. Addiction, on the other hand, is characterized by a strong desire to continue drug use despite the ways in which it is negatively affecting one’s life. It is possible for addiction and physical dependence to have overlap (and for many drugs this is common) but they are mutually exclusive - one does not necessarily imply the other and the presence of one does not mean there is the presence of the other.
If they aren’t addictive, but cause the same withdrawal symptoms which result from addiction, in some cases severely, then what should we call them?
While withdrawal symptoms can vary with the nature of addiction, one does not need to be addicted to experience withdrawal symptoms. Many common, non-addictive chemicals have withdrawal symptoms. Nearly every drug has some kind of withdrawal symptoms. Withdrawal symptoms are the direct biological consequences of a human changing their equilibrium with the addition of or removal of an exogenous substance or the regular use of said substance and the long-term biological changes it can have on one’s body.
At a high level, I would highly suggest you educating yourself on drug dependence and recovery as well as the psychology of addiction. These are high level basic concepts which are taught to you in any human-centered biology and psychology coursework.
It is possible for addiction and physical dependence to have overlap (and for many drugs this is common) but they are mutually exclusive - one does not necessarily imply the other and the presence of one does not mean there is the presence of the other.
Interesting. I’d always used the terms interchangeably, because I did not realize that there was a difference. I’ll look into it, and won’t repeat the mistake. Thanks for taking the time to respond.
Nobody is abusing antidepressants. Nobody is getting high off of antidepressants. Nobody is funding cartels trafficking antidepressants. Nobody who’s depressed should be punished for seeking treatment.
To me this is clearly getting people ready for concentration camps of some sort. That said I have taken antidepressants and I understand SSRI dependence as I have had withdrawal from SSRIs. I suffered with it for more than 10 years. The tricky thing here, is that the most convincing lies are always salted with truths or half truths to make them easier to swallow.
Nowhere did I even begin to insinuate that people who are depressed should be punished for seeking treatment, or that mental illness is curable. Where did you get that idea? Sometimes seeking treatment includes refining treatment, which involves moving from a medication that isn’t effective, or is no longer effective, to a new one. Of course no one who is depressed should be punished for seeking treatment.
If someone needs to stop taking a particular medication for whatever reason, but severe withdrawals inhibit their ability to function for weeks or months - or worse, result in other MH symptoms which may cause harm or death, why is providing them with a venue in which they can safely manage their meds a controversial idea? Doesn’t have to be a farm, it doesn’t have to be this idea. This has zero to do with RFK. I’d never suggest it be involuntary, and it’s certainly not a punishment.
People trying to quit smoking are gonna be considered anti-depressant addicts because this worm-headed fuck doesn’t know they use them as smoking cessation, too.
It may be worth trying to get to a state that’ll be likely to try to fight this nonsense if you’re not already in one. I’m sure that’s something you’ve already thought about, but… this just makes it more dire.
I have to hold out hope that we can protect people to some degree at the state level.
yeah, I live in Washington state, so I’m covered there. though, I’m not exactly enthused about my life depending on politicians deciding not to capitulate. thankfully, we bucked the trend this election and actually went more left.
They are a pill that inhibits serotonin reuptake (in the case of SSRIs) and thereby can help treat biological illnesses such as Major Depressive Disorders (not to be confused with short-term reactive depression, which is psychological in nature and therefore doesn’t respond to antidepressants).
This is obviously horrendous on the face of it, but in addition, he doesn’t even consider people who take medication classed as antidepressants for other issues. I am on a tricyclic antidepressant that does help my depression, but I also take it because it significantly reduces migraine attacks and mitigates my IBS symptoms. So even if you do think that depression is ‘all in your head’ (ignoring all modern information and proof to the contrary), you still should be enraged by the mere suggestion of a policy like this.
While I’m not a fan of RFK Jr., this seems to be a misinterpretation of what he’s saying. Regarding antidepressants, he said, “other psychiatric drugs, if they want to, to get off of SSRIs, to get off of benzos, to get off of Adderall, and to spend time as much time as they need…” (emphasis mine)
It seems like, in addition to drug related offenses (which is its own rather thorny issue) he intends for this to be for people who want to stop taking SSRIs, benzos, and other psych meds and need support doing it. I’m not seeing any indication that this would be involuntary, and I’m certain that if he said anything like that the quote would be present, but it’s not.
Having seen how devastating the withdrawal can be for some psych meds, even with tapering, I can’t say that this seems like a bad idea on its face. So many people try to quit psych meds and end up hospitalized; I’ve believed for a long time that there should be some sort of recovery program for people coming off of these medications, because they will 100% mess you up when you start taking less.
Now, adderall I don’t really understand its inclusion here, because it isn’t known for withdrawal.
The Chinese government has claimed that the Xinjiang re-education camps were voluntary educational centers aimed at combating extremism and teaching vocational skills…
They actually spread multiple different stories about what these concentration camps were. First they denied their existence outright, then satellite photos and documentation was published that proved these were real, so they claimed they were factories, schools, prisons for terrorists, etc. Many of these lies were published at nearly the exact same time.
That’s how we know that they are actually concentration camps, that there is actually a genocide going on.
Please don’t give this hateful grifter any benefit of the doubt. He’s been marginalizing the already disadvantaged while fighting against public health for money for decades.
The above sources even clarify that withdrawal symptoms are not a sign of addiction.
Many psychiatric conditions are incurable. As a result, these lifelong conditions can only be treated by the lifelong administration of medicine.
Anyone who does not understand that should not have a say in public policy. Full stop.
Think it through to its logical conclusion.
ADHD does not go away. Depression (for many people) does not go away. Schizophrenia does not go away.
What happens to those people if they ‘voluntarily’ agree to go to a labor camp but never wind up ‘cured’?
Hint: They get worked to death.
Many psychiatric conditions are incurable. As a result, these lifelong conditions can only be treated by the lifelong administration of medicine.
I agree with you.
And I’m willing to entertain that maybe the word ‘addiction’ has a connotation that I’m not seeing, but as far as I can tell, there is certainly a physical dependence upon SSRIs. No one is abusing SSRIs or getting high, but if they cause the same withdrawal symptoms as drugs of abuse, and as severely, what would you call it if not addiction? Honestly asking, because I’m willing to be educated here.
What happens to those people if they ‘voluntarily’ agree to go to a labor camp but never wind up ‘cured’?
I would certainly hope that such a facility would be staffed by medical professionals who would be able to recognize “Nope, you need medication” in those cases.
Now, whether that’s what RFK is envisioning here is debatable. And it wouldn’t surprise me if he thought you could just put people to work and they wouldn’t need meds anymore. I have no desire to defend RFK or anyone else tapped to be in the next administration. I just don’t think it’s necessarily a bad idea to have a safe place available for people who need to deal with withdrawals for anything.
Addiction has a medical definition, not a connotation.
As previously shown, SSRI’s do not cause addiction, even if they can cause withdrawal or physical dependence for some people.
I guess I’m wondering if support of this policy has to be riddled with asterisks and accompanied by statements that express hopes of how the programs will be run, then why express any support at all for them?
And finally: There are safe places available for people to go if they feel they are having mental health issues that require more intensive care.
Mind you, these are really only available to people with health insurance - Regan largely killed off federal and community mental health care in the 80’s. Care that cannot be replaced with a labor camp.
The only proper replacement for that care is rebuilding that/those system(s), and that is not what RFK is proposing. He’s proposing a labor camp to take advantage of and imprison away vulnerable populations.
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I don’t see a single reference to A Scanner Darkly in the comment section and I am pretty sure RFK lifted the idea from it. Then again forcing vulnerable people to do farm labor to “help” them is at least as old as slavery and native boarding schools 🤮 die worm man die
What a horrible misunderstanding of how addiction works.
Might as well tell people with cancer to just think they don’t have cancer and they’ll be cured.
RFK had a horrible misunderstanding of how most things work.
If he is allowed to implement his insane ideas, people will die. A lot of people.
It’s very common to be misdiagnosed with depression and put on an SSRI when it’s not going to help. (SSRIs will generally not help a mood disorder like bipolar, for instance). SSRIs are highly addictive in that discontinuing them often comes with pretty severe withdrawal. So it’s not just a matter of “you can think your way out of depression” because a lot of people quit SSRIs for very good reasons - moving to a more appropriate treatment being one of them, and often it requires hospitalization because of how awful the withdrawal is, even with tapering the dose down.
I am not a fan of RFK Jr. Politically I’m a good distance to the left of liberal. But honestly, if implemented correctly this could help a whole bunch of people who are trapped on SSRIs prescribed by a doctor who didn’t really know how to diagnose them, and could also help a lot of nonviolent offenders who just need help beating their addiction. I understand that ‘if implemented correctly’ is a big ask with this administration, but let’s maybe not throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Remember these days you ran interference for RFK Jr because you were too afraid to face up to the truth of what he was actually suggesting. It is a sour feeling and I say that with experience. People said the same thing about migrant camps and family seperation at the border. They said the same about Roe v Wade. They said the same thing about random deportations. Assuming you’re being genuine I have to ask you to learn to expect the worst and merely hope for the best. This man aggressively doesn’t know what the fuck he’s talking about and when you defend him you sound the same way.
If you read this and saw me defending RFK, you misinterpreted me. I specifically said I’m not a fan.
This is what I am saying. Antidepressants are highly addictive and it doesn’t get talked about. The commenter I replied to said that this article deeply misunderstands addiction, which I interpreted to mean that the commenter doesn’t know how addictive SSRIs are. That’s not surprising, a lot of people don’t know how addictive they are. There are many valid reasons to stop taking an antidepressant, and it’s very difficult. We should do something to help those people besides force them to check into a psych ward. That’s what I said, and I meant it.
SSRIs are not addictive and almost no antidepressants have addictive qualities. Many can cause withdrawal symptoms, which is very different from addiction, and a few select agents have been misused in contexts where access to drugs are low and quality of life are low, such as prison, but this kind of use needs to be considered in context, as these individuals are desperate for escape.
Please do not spread misinformation.
Yes, antidepressants are not considered addictive by the same big pharma companies who told us that Oxycodone was not totally fine.
Honestly asking, because I don’t know. What is the difference between a physical dependence and addiction? Because there is certainly a physical dependence with SSRIs, whatever word you want to use.
If they aren’t addictive, but cause the same withdrawal symptoms which result from addiction, in some cases severely, then what should we call them? Again, I’m not trying to be snarky. If I am using the word “addiction” incorrectly I’m willing to be educated. I’m just speaking from my own experience.
No, I’m talking about how researchers, who do not have conflicts of interest, have to say about these drugs.
Googling this will give you plenty of pages drawing the distinction between the two. For example, here’s a webmd article on the difference. In short, it’s meaningful to draw clear distinctions and definitions around where an urge is coming from. Withdrawing from a substance does not necessarily mean you desire the substance. Taking the substance to avoid withdrawal symptoms might happen because you wish to avoid the negative symptoms, and treating the symptoms could be enough to get someone off the substance causing problems. Addiction, on the other hand, is characterized by a strong desire to continue drug use despite the ways in which it is negatively affecting one’s life. It is possible for addiction and physical dependence to have overlap (and for many drugs this is common) but they are mutually exclusive - one does not necessarily imply the other and the presence of one does not mean there is the presence of the other.
While withdrawal symptoms can vary with the nature of addiction, one does not need to be addicted to experience withdrawal symptoms. Many common, non-addictive chemicals have withdrawal symptoms. Nearly every drug has some kind of withdrawal symptoms. Withdrawal symptoms are the direct biological consequences of a human changing their equilibrium with the addition of or removal of an exogenous substance or the regular use of said substance and the long-term biological changes it can have on one’s body.
At a high level, I would highly suggest you educating yourself on drug dependence and recovery as well as the psychology of addiction. These are high level basic concepts which are taught to you in any human-centered biology and psychology coursework.
Interesting. I’d always used the terms interchangeably, because I did not realize that there was a difference. I’ll look into it, and won’t repeat the mistake. Thanks for taking the time to respond.
Nobody is abusing antidepressants. Nobody is getting high off of antidepressants. Nobody is funding cartels trafficking antidepressants. Nobody who’s depressed should be punished for seeking treatment.
To me this is clearly getting people ready for concentration camps of some sort. That said I have taken antidepressants and I understand SSRI dependence as I have had withdrawal from SSRIs. I suffered with it for more than 10 years. The tricky thing here, is that the most convincing lies are always salted with truths or half truths to make them easier to swallow.
Nowhere did I even begin to insinuate that people who are depressed should be punished for seeking treatment, or that mental illness is curable. Where did you get that idea? Sometimes seeking treatment includes refining treatment, which involves moving from a medication that isn’t effective, or is no longer effective, to a new one. Of course no one who is depressed should be punished for seeking treatment.
If someone needs to stop taking a particular medication for whatever reason, but severe withdrawals inhibit their ability to function for weeks or months - or worse, result in other MH symptoms which may cause harm or death, why is providing them with a venue in which they can safely manage their meds a controversial idea? Doesn’t have to be a farm, it doesn’t have to be this idea. This has zero to do with RFK. I’d never suggest it be involuntary, and it’s certainly not a punishment.
People trying to quit smoking are gonna be considered anti-depressant addicts because this worm-headed fuck doesn’t know they use them as smoking cessation, too.
So, step 1, substantially reduce agricultural migrant labor; step 2, create gulags for the neurodivergent to try to make up the difference? Lovely.
My fear exactly.
Doesn’t this kind of thing always start off “voluntary”?
Nothing like cramming a bunch of mentally unwell people recently off their meds into slave labour camps. That’ll work out real nice.
I got an ADHD diagnosis and started on adderall a few months ago. I fucking hate these people so much.
so i guess even if they manage to forcibly detransition me and not just kill me, I have this to look forward to? fuuuuuuck.
It may be worth trying to get to a state that’ll be likely to try to fight this nonsense if you’re not already in one. I’m sure that’s something you’ve already thought about, but… this just makes it more dire.
I have to hold out hope that we can protect people to some degree at the state level.
yeah, I live in Washington state, so I’m covered there. though, I’m not exactly enthused about my life depending on politicians deciding not to capitulate. thankfully, we bucked the trend this election and actually went more left.
I’m seriously considering leaving the country. It’s a hard path, so I don’t know how doable it would be.
Antidepressants aren’t a “make you happy” pill.
They are a pill that inhibits serotonin reuptake (in the case of SSRIs) and thereby can help treat biological illnesses such as Major Depressive Disorders (not to be confused with short-term reactive depression, which is psychological in nature and therefore doesn’t respond to antidepressants).
You are correct.
But there are a great variation in anti depressants as well as ssri.
This is obviously horrendous on the face of it, but in addition, he doesn’t even consider people who take medication classed as antidepressants for other issues. I am on a tricyclic antidepressant that does help my depression, but I also take it because it significantly reduces migraine attacks and mitigates my IBS symptoms. So even if you do think that depression is ‘all in your head’ (ignoring all modern information and proof to the contrary), you still should be enraged by the mere suggestion of a policy like this.
Is it people addicted to antidepressants or “addicted”?
Seems like an excuse to just send people they don’t like to camps
That’s an interesting plan to fix the upcoming agricultural labour shortage after the mass deportations…
From what i understand they wanna fill the workforce void with kids
While I’m not a fan of RFK Jr., this seems to be a misinterpretation of what he’s saying. Regarding antidepressants, he said, “other psychiatric drugs, if they want to, to get off of SSRIs, to get off of benzos, to get off of Adderall, and to spend time as much time as they need…” (emphasis mine)
It seems like, in addition to drug related offenses (which is its own rather thorny issue) he intends for this to be for people who want to stop taking SSRIs, benzos, and other psych meds and need support doing it. I’m not seeing any indication that this would be involuntary, and I’m certain that if he said anything like that the quote would be present, but it’s not.
Having seen how devastating the withdrawal can be for some psych meds, even with tapering, I can’t say that this seems like a bad idea on its face. So many people try to quit psych meds and end up hospitalized; I’ve believed for a long time that there should be some sort of recovery program for people coming off of these medications, because they will 100% mess you up when you start taking less.
Now, adderall I don’t really understand its inclusion here, because it isn’t known for withdrawal.
They are never that direct. It starts at one thing and in a few months its in full swing
“if they want to”
So…
The Chinese government has claimed that the Xinjiang re-education camps were voluntary educational centers aimed at combating extremism and teaching vocational skills…
They actually spread multiple different stories about what these concentration camps were. First they denied their existence outright, then satellite photos and documentation was published that proved these were real, so they claimed they were factories, schools, prisons for terrorists, etc. Many of these lies were published at nearly the exact same time.
That’s how we know that they are actually concentration camps, that there is actually a genocide going on.
Please don’t give this hateful grifter any benefit of the doubt. He’s been marginalizing the already disadvantaged while fighting against public health for money for decades.
There is no such thing as addiction to antidepressants.
This viewpoint is supported by the Mayo Clinic, The Cleveland Clinic, as well as this 2019 study published by the national institutes of health, which draws from decades of research.
The above sources even clarify that withdrawal symptoms are not a sign of addiction.
Many psychiatric conditions are incurable. As a result, these lifelong conditions can only be treated by the lifelong administration of medicine.
Anyone who does not understand that should not have a say in public policy. Full stop.
Think it through to its logical conclusion.
ADHD does not go away. Depression (for many people) does not go away. Schizophrenia does not go away.
What happens to those people if they ‘voluntarily’ agree to go to a labor camp but never wind up ‘cured’?
Hint: They get worked to death.
I agree with you.
And I’m willing to entertain that maybe the word ‘addiction’ has a connotation that I’m not seeing, but as far as I can tell, there is certainly a physical dependence upon SSRIs. No one is abusing SSRIs or getting high, but if they cause the same withdrawal symptoms as drugs of abuse, and as severely, what would you call it if not addiction? Honestly asking, because I’m willing to be educated here.
I would certainly hope that such a facility would be staffed by medical professionals who would be able to recognize “Nope, you need medication” in those cases.
Now, whether that’s what RFK is envisioning here is debatable. And it wouldn’t surprise me if he thought you could just put people to work and they wouldn’t need meds anymore. I have no desire to defend RFK or anyone else tapped to be in the next administration. I just don’t think it’s necessarily a bad idea to have a safe place available for people who need to deal with withdrawals for anything.
Addiction has a medical definition, not a connotation.
As previously shown, SSRI’s do not cause addiction, even if they can cause withdrawal or physical dependence for some people.
I guess I’m wondering if support of this policy has to be riddled with asterisks and accompanied by statements that express hopes of how the programs will be run, then why express any support at all for them?
And finally: There are safe places available for people to go if they feel they are having mental health issues that require more intensive care. Mind you, these are really only available to people with health insurance - Regan largely killed off federal and community mental health care in the 80’s. Care that cannot be replaced with a labor camp.
The only proper replacement for that care is rebuilding that/those system(s), and that is not what RFK is proposing. He’s proposing a labor camp to take advantage of and imprison away vulnerable populations.
If there’s a bad take in medicine, RFK fully buys into it. It’s wild how wrong one person can be.
Who needs all that science anyway.
Sure. Just don’t expect me to get out of bed on your “farm”, Maggie.