Tensions flared in the House of Commons on Monday over opposition calls for House of Commons Speaker Anthony Rota to resign after apologizing to the House of Commons for inviting, recognizing and leading the chamber in a standing ovation for a man who fought for a Nazi unit during the Second World War.
Tensions flared in the House of Commons on Monday over opposition calls for House of Commons Speaker Anthony Rota to resign after apologizing to the House of Commons for inviting, recognizing and leading the chamber in a standing ovation for a man who fought for a Nazi unit during the Second World War.
I wonder what he did while in WW2 or does anyone care? Does the fact that he was in the SS just makes him a bad guy regardless of his actions? His Wikipedia says he fought Russians, it doesn’t say anything about exterminating Jews or anything else we know Hitler’s Nazi’s did.
It reminds me of Pope Benedict being a member of the Hitler youth. Some people were forced into that shit during a time of high propaganda and deception. Hitler was elected in a Democracy and fooled his own people to think they were being attacked so many normal regular Germans supported him. Are they all Nazi’s?? No.
No one knows what this guy did during WWII but you’re all so quick to assume because he was SS he most certainly did something bad. That’s lazy thinking and if you had any shame, you’d be embarrassed by your words
Like Oskar Schindler, he too was a Nazi but he saved lots of Jews and Jews love him for it. I’ve not heard 1 Jew call Oskar a Nazi but this entire thread is acting like just being SS means you’re the worst person in the world, without any merit.
We sure live in a fucked up place where merit doesn’t matter and the opinion of people who admittedly know nothing and are just assuming from nothing.
I also didn’t say Hitler Youth and the SS were comparable. You clearly don’t know how to read if someone is making a comparison or not so you come off as uneducated and ignorant.
For someone who told me I don’t know much, it’s clear as day that you don’t know much.
Because I am being judgemental. That wasn’t supposed to be subtext. I’m literally telling you’re being ignorant, but now you’re signalling that you’re not being ignorant, you’re being an apologist for the most Nazified troops.
No one knows what this guy did during WWII but you’re all so quick to assume because he was SS he most certainly did something bad. That’s lazy thinking and if you had any shame, you’d be embarrassed by your words
This reads like you’re either completely and utterly ignorant of who the SS were, or you’re a Nazi apologist. It’s telling you think there’s more shame to be had about assuming an SS member acted like an SS member than you are that you’re trying to suggest it’s possible that there were good SS members.
Like Oskar Schindler, he too was a Nazi but he saved lots of Jews and Jews love him for it. I’ve not heard 1 Jew call Oskar a Nazi but this entire thread is acting like just being SS means you’re the worst person in the world, without any merit.
You already tried to argue about people having to go along with the flow of an authoritarian country, and now you’re reversed course to try to justify “Not all Nazis” while using one of the biggest examples of a secret anti-Nazi. Nazis don’t save Jewish people en masse and sabotage Nazi arms, and it’s fucking insane that you’re suggesting that. If any argument here deserves shame, it’s this one.
We sure live in a fucked up place where merit doesn’t matter and the opinion of people who admittedly know nothing and are just assuming from nothing.
Explain how this doesn’t apply to you.
I also didn’t say Hitler Youth and the SS were comparable. You clearly don’t know how to read if someone is making a comparison or not so you come off as uneducated and ignorant.
Then why did you make the direct comparison in your rhetoric? You literally said it reminded you. Do you actually have that little clue about what you were saying?
For someone who told me I don’t know much, it’s clear as day that you don’t know much.
This statement would mean a hell of a lot more if your contention with my statements wasn’t just doubling down on your already ignorant statements, accidentally revealing you didn’t even know how you were speaking, and making some absolutely inane new comments that show even less of an understanding than before.
You saying I know less is probably a good thing because your idea of how all this played out is pure fiction and fantasy.
56- The Galicia Division ( 14. Waffengrenadierdivision der SS [gal. #1]) should not be indicted as a group.
57- The members of Galicia Division were individually screened for security purposes before admission to Canada.
58- Charges of war crimes of Galicia Division have never been substantiated, either in 1950 when they were first preferred, or in 1984 when they were renewed, or before this Commission.
59- Further, in the absence of evidence of participation or knowledge of specific war crimes, mere membership in the Galicia Division is insufficient to justify prosecution.
60- No case can be made against members of Galicia Division for revocation of citizenship or deportation since the Canadian authorities were fully aware of the relevant facts in 1950 and admission to Canada was not granted them because of any false representation, or fraud, or concealment of material circumstances.
61- In any event, of the 217 officers of the Galicia Division denounced by Mr. Simon Wiesenthal to the Canadian government, 187 (i.e., 86 percent never set foot in Canada, 11 have died in Canada, 2 have left for another country, no prima facie case has been established against 16 and the last one could not be located
The problem I see here stems from the fact that the parliament is supposed to represent all Canadians. Honouring a former member of the SS is inconsiderate to those who have suffered from Nazism as well as their descendants here in Canada. Maybe it’s appropriate to honour him in Ukraine as someone who contributed to Ukrainian independence because many there sees Nazism as a lesser evil than Soviet oppression. However I don’t think that’s good enough of a reason for it to be considered appropriate here in Canada.
It is inconsiderate without question. It’s a massive gaffe on our government’s part but it’s still not clear what wrong this guy did. Lots of Germans were fooled into thinking Germany was being attacked when it wasn’t. My best friend is German and his mother is insanely embarrassed by what happened and refuses to talk about it. It’s a huge source of guilt and shame for many Germans but most Germans at one point supported Hitler. That doesn’t make them bad people.
Our Government saw this as a slam dunk against Russia and it backfired in the worst way possible. Maybe our Government will learn from this and no longer invite anyone to the house of commons to avoid any more future gaffes?
What this guy did is irrelevant to the question whether he should be honoured in parliament due to his past as a member of the SS. Because he was not found guilty of war crimes that’s why he’s allowed to live peacefully here in Canada till this day. However, to be honoured in the parliament there has to be evidence of him done overwhelming good. Not committing war crimes as a former Nazi does not meet that threshold for him to be there.
You don’t need to convince me that not all members of the Nazi party are necessarily evil, I never said they are and I don’t care. The question at hand here is whether the individual should be honoured by Canada as a nation.
Again, simple test: would Schindler be given an ovation in the Bundestag? Or the Knesset? Yes he would, Oskar Schindler is a Righteous Among the Nations. He proved spectacularly that he was “no true Scotchman”. An extraordinary exception doesn’t nullify the basic rule “nazi bad”.
Basically, the same old rule that extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.
I mean that’s kinda the point the guy you originally replied to was making. From the limited info I’ve seen about this guy I know nothing about him, which isn’t enough for me to dismiss him as a shitty person with just “Nazi bad”. Certainly a good starting point tho lol
Schindler was extraordinary. Extraordinary means out of the ordinary. Meaning a notion of an ordinary exists. The ordinary is nazi bad. A good position to adopt as a default.
There didn’t even need to be a check. Just the phrase “he fought in WWII against the Russians” would tell them all they needed if they put 2 seconds of thought into it.
Kremlin spokesperson Dmitry Peskov castigated Canada for ‘sloppiness of memory’
Peskov is (ugh) right. How oblivious do you have to be to not clue in when this guy is announced as having fought against the Russians in WW2? Unless he’s Finnish (which he is not), which side do you think that puts him on?
Canadians really need to start voting for actual competent people instead of parties. Even the pretense of parading a Ukrainian guy around due to the Russian invasion is rather repugnant behavior.
The problem is that if the candidate from Party “A” is a competent weasel who wants to undermine everything I stand for, and party “B”'s candidate is an incompetent boob who won’t help matters but also is popular and won’t actively ruin everything, then it’s far more important to my interests that party “A”'s candidate not be voted in than it is to cast a vote for candidate “C”. The system is working how is designed to and the only people who are capable of changing it are the ones benefiting from it being broken, so the only way that’s likely to happen is if there were somehow a mass exodus away from the big two parties.
He wasn’t introduced that way, though. He was just introduced as a “Ukrainian war hero and a Canadian war hero [and we thank him for his service]”. That’s why it’s not surprising that everyone gave him an ovation. Who wouldn’t? The issue is that the person introducing him, who didn’t even tell anyone else about his attendance or that he would be recognized, although he got some basic facts right (the guy fought in Ukraine and now lives in Canada), didn’t bother to vet the context of those facts. It’s incredibly sloppy and incredibly embarrassing.
Immediate edit: I have finally seen a video of this and he definitely says “Ukrainian independence against Russia”. Oooooooof.
I have to say that this looks very odd to me. I’m in Rota’s riding, and he hardly ever takes any action visible enough to make the news here. And now he takes a highly visible action that’s going to trash his political career (regardless of whether he resigns or not, I doubt he’s going to get reelected after this—rumour has it he won’t run). He’s been in politics for quite a while, and he should have known better. It’s possible that he simply got complacent and careless, but I do wonder how he knew that this guy existed in the first place.
I didn’t know any Americans cared about Canadian politics. Welcome. It’s a dim place, but at least we’re not quite at dark cesspit yet. We are doing are darnedest to get there though.
The controversy exploded over the weekend when it came to light that MPs from all parties, Trudeau and [president of Ukraine] Zelenskky honoured this individual with cheers, salutes and applause.
“We have here in the chamber today a Ukrainian Canadian war veteran from the Second World War who fought for Ukrainian independence against the Russians and continues to support the troops today even at his age of 98,” Rota said on Friday. “I am very proud to say that he is from North Bay and from my riding of Nipissing—Timiskaming. He is a Ukrainian hero and a Canadian hero, and we thank him for all his service.”
I think this issue raises how complex political history is more than anything. And, yeah, MPs should probably have more guidance with this stuff. “Speaker invites Nazi” seems so ‘gotcha!’ without learning anything from the incident
Lol ‘Ukrainian who fought the Russians in wwII’ automatically makes him most likely a nazi, the political history is not complex at all here, they should have checked. I can’t believe they didn’t know.
Oh well, as long as they only cheer for the good Nazis in Parliament…
They can’t spin this not to look like a very stupid thing to do. And with Russia calling Ukraine a bunch of Nazis, while everyone calls Wagner a bunch of Nazis, and all the tensions around the rise of fascism around the world, it’s really the worst time to make such a mistake.
This seems as good a place as any to say that I’ve seen actual Parliamentary-minded people (Kady O’Malley, for one) point out that it would actually be inappropriate for the government to have any say in who the Speaker invites to the HoC. This is something that Andrew Scheer, as a former Speaker himself, knows.
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I wonder what he did while in WW2 or does anyone care? Does the fact that he was in the SS just makes him a bad guy regardless of his actions? His Wikipedia says he fought Russians, it doesn’t say anything about exterminating Jews or anything else we know Hitler’s Nazi’s did.
It reminds me of Pope Benedict being a member of the Hitler youth. Some people were forced into that shit during a time of high propaganda and deception. Hitler was elected in a Democracy and fooled his own people to think they were being attacked so many normal regular Germans supported him. Are they all Nazi’s?? No.
Yes. Are you a nazi apologist or extremely ignorant?
Likening the SS to the Hitler Youth is fucking ridiculous. So again, nazi apologist or extremely ignorant?
Edit: spelling
You don’t know much if you think there were innocent SS troops.
You don’t know much if you think that’s the only bad thing SS troops did.
You don’t know much if you think the SS is comparable to the youth group.
You sure are coming off as very judgmental.
No one knows what this guy did during WWII but you’re all so quick to assume because he was SS he most certainly did something bad. That’s lazy thinking and if you had any shame, you’d be embarrassed by your words
Like Oskar Schindler, he too was a Nazi but he saved lots of Jews and Jews love him for it. I’ve not heard 1 Jew call Oskar a Nazi but this entire thread is acting like just being SS means you’re the worst person in the world, without any merit.
We sure live in a fucked up place where merit doesn’t matter and the opinion of people who admittedly know nothing and are just assuming from nothing.
I also didn’t say Hitler Youth and the SS were comparable. You clearly don’t know how to read if someone is making a comparison or not so you come off as uneducated and ignorant.
For someone who told me I don’t know much, it’s clear as day that you don’t know much.
Because I am being judgemental. That wasn’t supposed to be subtext. I’m literally telling you’re being ignorant, but now you’re signalling that you’re not being ignorant, you’re being an apologist for the most Nazified troops.
This reads like you’re either completely and utterly ignorant of who the SS were, or you’re a Nazi apologist. It’s telling you think there’s more shame to be had about assuming an SS member acted like an SS member than you are that you’re trying to suggest it’s possible that there were good SS members.
You already tried to argue about people having to go along with the flow of an authoritarian country, and now you’re reversed course to try to justify “Not all Nazis” while using one of the biggest examples of a secret anti-Nazi. Nazis don’t save Jewish people en masse and sabotage Nazi arms, and it’s fucking insane that you’re suggesting that. If any argument here deserves shame, it’s this one.
Explain how this doesn’t apply to you.
Then why did you make the direct comparison in your rhetoric? You literally said it reminded you. Do you actually have that little clue about what you were saying?
This statement would mean a hell of a lot more if your contention with my statements wasn’t just doubling down on your already ignorant statements, accidentally revealing you didn’t even know how you were speaking, and making some absolutely inane new comments that show even less of an understanding than before.
You saying I know less is probably a good thing because your idea of how all this played out is pure fiction and fantasy.
https://web.archive.org/web/20090814153200/http://www.infoukes.com/galiciadivision/deschenes/
More info on why Canada does not see this guy as a Nazi can be found here. Basically they were nazis, but there was no proof of any war crimes. (?)
The Commission accordingly FINDS that:
56- The Galicia Division ( 14. Waffengrenadierdivision der SS [gal. #1]) should not be indicted as a group. 57- The members of Galicia Division were individually screened for security purposes before admission to Canada. 58- Charges of war crimes of Galicia Division have never been substantiated, either in 1950 when they were first preferred, or in 1984 when they were renewed, or before this Commission. 59- Further, in the absence of evidence of participation or knowledge of specific war crimes, mere membership in the Galicia Division is insufficient to justify prosecution. 60- No case can be made against members of Galicia Division for revocation of citizenship or deportation since the Canadian authorities were fully aware of the relevant facts in 1950 and admission to Canada was not granted them because of any false representation, or fraud, or concealment of material circumstances. 61- In any event, of the 217 officers of the Galicia Division denounced by Mr. Simon Wiesenthal to the Canadian government, 187 (i.e., 86 percent never set foot in Canada, 11 have died in Canada, 2 have left for another country, no prima facie case has been established against 16 and the last one could not be located
The problem I see here stems from the fact that the parliament is supposed to represent all Canadians. Honouring a former member of the SS is inconsiderate to those who have suffered from Nazism as well as their descendants here in Canada. Maybe it’s appropriate to honour him in Ukraine as someone who contributed to Ukrainian independence because many there sees Nazism as a lesser evil than Soviet oppression. However I don’t think that’s good enough of a reason for it to be considered appropriate here in Canada.
It is inconsiderate without question. It’s a massive gaffe on our government’s part but it’s still not clear what wrong this guy did. Lots of Germans were fooled into thinking Germany was being attacked when it wasn’t. My best friend is German and his mother is insanely embarrassed by what happened and refuses to talk about it. It’s a huge source of guilt and shame for many Germans but most Germans at one point supported Hitler. That doesn’t make them bad people.
Our Government saw this as a slam dunk against Russia and it backfired in the worst way possible. Maybe our Government will learn from this and no longer invite anyone to the house of commons to avoid any more future gaffes?
What this guy did is irrelevant to the question whether he should be honoured in parliament due to his past as a member of the SS. Because he was not found guilty of war crimes that’s why he’s allowed to live peacefully here in Canada till this day. However, to be honoured in the parliament there has to be evidence of him done overwhelming good. Not committing war crimes as a former Nazi does not meet that threshold for him to be there.
You don’t need to convince me that not all members of the Nazi party are necessarily evil, I never said they are and I don’t care. The question at hand here is whether the individual should be honoured by Canada as a nation.
Would he get an ovation in the Bundestag? No? So he shouldn’t get one on Parliament Hill.
Nazis bad, folks. Not that hard.
I mean there is slightly more to it than just that. Oskar Schindler was a Nazi, is he bad?
Again, simple test: would Schindler be given an ovation in the Bundestag? Or the Knesset? Yes he would, Oskar Schindler is a Righteous Among the Nations. He proved spectacularly that he was “no true Scotchman”. An extraordinary exception doesn’t nullify the basic rule “nazi bad”.
Basically, the same old rule that extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.
I mean that’s kinda the point the guy you originally replied to was making. From the limited info I’ve seen about this guy I know nothing about him, which isn’t enough for me to dismiss him as a shitty person with just “Nazi bad”. Certainly a good starting point tho lol
It’s exactly the point I was making but people here are so quick to make a judgement on little or no information.
Oskar Schindler was a Nazi. Pope Benedict was a Nazi. Neither are considered bad people but let’s just assume everyone else is?
Schindler was extraordinary. Extraordinary means out of the ordinary. Meaning a notion of an ordinary exists. The ordinary is nazi bad. A good position to adopt as a default.
Nobody did a check on this old dude? How embarrassing, our enemies love these kind of amateur mistakes.
Nope, politicians hard at work as always.
There didn’t even need to be a check. Just the phrase “he fought in WWII against the Russians” would tell them all they needed if they put 2 seconds of thought into it.
Poland fought and lost against the Russians in WW2. Are they Nazis?
Whenever I think of a country that would have a loving relationship with the Nazis, it would be poland.
For anyone that has a hard time understanding sarcasm, that was extremely sarcastic.
Some of them undeniably were.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collaboration_in_German-occupied_Poland
But that’s beyond the point, Poland and Finland are corner cases. The guy is Ukrainian.
He lived in Polish Ukraine at the time. Still not excusing fighting for the Nazis.
This is embarrassing. Russia is already taking advantage of it.
https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.6977248
Peskov is (ugh) right. How oblivious do you have to be to not clue in when this guy is announced as having fought against the Russians in WW2? Unless he’s Finnish (which he is not), which side do you think that puts him on?
Ukrainians and other EE peoples fought against the Red Army who did not collaborate with the Nazi regime…
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaroslav_Hunka this the guy, just for reference
I am not arguing that this specific dude collaborated, my understanding a few thousand of them surrenders to allies and end up in Canada.
Just addressing above claim that anyone who fought Russians during WW2 is a Nazi collaborator.
Russia was on Germany’s side at the beginning of the war. They invaded Poland with Germany.
Canadians really need to start voting for actual competent people instead of parties. Even the pretense of parading a Ukrainian guy around due to the Russian invasion is rather repugnant behavior.
The problem is that if the candidate from Party “A” is a competent weasel who wants to undermine everything I stand for, and party “B”'s candidate is an incompetent boob who won’t help matters but also is popular and won’t actively ruin everything, then it’s far more important to my interests that party “A”'s candidate not be voted in than it is to cast a vote for candidate “C”. The system is working how is designed to and the only people who are capable of changing it are the ones benefiting from it being broken, so the only way that’s likely to happen is if there were somehow a mass exodus away from the big two parties.
He wasn’t introduced that way, though. He was just introduced as a “Ukrainian war hero and a Canadian war hero [and we thank him for his service]”. That’s why it’s not surprising that everyone gave him an ovation. Who wouldn’t? The issue is that the person introducing him, who didn’t even tell anyone else about his attendance or that he would be recognized, although he got some basic facts right (the guy fought in Ukraine and now lives in Canada), didn’t bother to vet the context of those facts. It’s incredibly sloppy and incredibly embarrassing.
Immediate edit: I have finally seen a video of this and he definitely says “Ukrainian independence against Russia”. Oooooooof.
Don’t we kinda give the Finns a pass on this shit already?
If I did something like that, I’d probably resign immediately. It’s worrying that our politicians don’t think that way
In most cases, I think I’d chalk it up to human beings being human and call it a mistake. This was just careless and thoughtless, though.
What a colossal screw up. He really should step down - like this has geopolitical ramifications these days.
I have to say that this looks very odd to me. I’m in Rota’s riding, and he hardly ever takes any action visible enough to make the news here. And now he takes a highly visible action that’s going to trash his political career (regardless of whether he resigns or not, I doubt he’s going to get reelected after this—rumour has it he won’t run). He’s been in politics for quite a while, and he should have known better. It’s possible that he simply got complacent and careless, but I do wonder how he knew that this guy existed in the first place.
I didn’t realize speakers were MPs. (Dumb American)
I didn’t know any Americans cared about Canadian politics. Welcome. It’s a dim place, but at least we’re not quite at dark cesspit yet. We are doing are darnedest to get there though.
You kidding? The NDP has always been my northern light. I grew up rage reading about Harper.
Are we taking bets on whether anyone will face any real consequences for this?
I think this issue raises how complex political history is more than anything. And, yeah, MPs should probably have more guidance with this stuff. “Speaker invites Nazi” seems so ‘gotcha!’ without learning anything from the incident
Lol ‘Ukrainian who fought the Russians in wwII’ automatically makes him most likely a nazi, the political history is not complex at all here, they should have checked. I can’t believe they didn’t know.
https://web.archive.org/web/20090814153200/http://www.infoukes.com/galiciadivision/deschenes/
Canada says ‘they did nothing wrong’ besides yannow being nazis.
“We don’t have proof they committed any war crimes”
Oh well, as long as they only cheer for the good Nazis in Parliament…
They can’t spin this not to look like a very stupid thing to do. And with Russia calling Ukraine a bunch of Nazis, while everyone calls Wagner a bunch of Nazis, and all the tensions around the rise of fascism around the world, it’s really the worst time to make such a mistake.
did we break some political mirror or something? how are we constantly stumbling over ourselves
It’s modern Canadian politics. When have we not been constantly stumbling over ourselves in the past 15 years.
This seems as good a place as any to say that I’ve seen actual Parliamentary-minded people (Kady O’Malley, for one) point out that it would actually be inappropriate for the government to have any say in who the Speaker invites to the HoC. This is something that Andrew Scheer, as a former Speaker himself, knows.
Regardless, if Rota or anyone on his staff had done two minutes of research on the guy, I’m pretty sure he would have not invited him to HoC.
Yeah, I think he should definitely step down as Speaker.