It means Windows is switching to a subscription model. It could be a good thing for some Linux users, if they need Windows for specific applications and don’t want to spin up a VM. O can’t see a reason for using it beyond that, other than being forced to, because Microsoft kills off yoir local Windows and turns your computer for a bootloader for a cloud system, which is itself a bootloader for your browser, for most people. What a terrible world we live in. Zero privacy guaranteed, a subscription model making Windows more profitable (again).
ALSO, good luck stripping down Windows, removing bloatware, ads and telemetry. I GUARANTEE you it will be impossible to remove ads and telemetry on Windows in the Cloud. And thus that crap will be FORCED on you!
Precisely. Putting more of the control onto Microsoft server means this: you do anything that they don’t like? No Windows for you. Oh, now we need more money so now we’re putting in a shitty change, don’t like it? Suck it up.
However, since most retail hardware is built to target Windows compatibility, it could mean fewer options for hardware that will be easy to install Linux (or any other OS) on.
In fact, I would count on Microsift making their hardware spec intentionally be difficult to load anything “unapproved” on.
It does not mean anything for me because I am not a Windows user. For Windows users it means subscription models and renting software. It could also mean eventually booting your computer into a desktop that is in the cloud. I hope to god that does not happen because it may make finding hardware that will run Linux and BSD that much harder.
I don’t think it’s possible for them to do so, because that would means killing the gaming aspect of Windows. GPU on cloud is stupidly overpriced and expensive, just look at Standard_NV6 for an example, it easily cost $10,000/yr according to this (Just look for anything that have “N” in it’s name for GPU enabled VM and they are all expensive.)
If they try to ban everyone from being allowed to use their own computer hardware, I really doubt people would stay on Windows, they most likely would be in the 5 stages of griefs and then contemplate on switching to either Linux or Mac OSX.
I personally don’t see the “Eureka!” moment that big tech apparently does in moving EVERYTHING to the cloud when they struggle to design safe and reliable services as is. The whole cloud stuff just kind of says “sure it will be a privacy nightmare rife for exploitation from bad actors, but THINK of the money we could earn from it in the long run!”
I used to use OneDrive but they recently shrunk down everyone’s free storage capacity to laughably small space and now wish for everyone to subscribe to more paid space.
I’m out of the loop on this subject. I know Onedrive previously offered 15GB to free users, then strunk it to 5GB, but kept the larger amount to legacy users.
I’ll be more than happy for more people to migrate to linux (or mac, but many people just can’t afford it) so MS doesn’t have such a monopoly on the OS space.
That’s something I want to do, but I’m afraid of missing something while backing up up my files and losing it in the OS wipe. It’s a lousy excuse, I know, but it still stops me. Mostly since I play a lot of games and don’t want to lose any save files tucked away somewhere unexpected.
That stuff should all be in C:/Users, but what if its not. And would have to go to each of my installed pieces of software to make sure any of my files are properly backed up which is so much work. Which only reveals another issue that I am terrible at keeping my stuff backed up.
That sounds like a horrid decision. Imagine having to troubleshoot a relative’s computer, which isn’t working because their internet is down, or is too slow to support streaming Windows like that.
It just sounds like a nightmare all-round, both from a Microsoft Standpoint, since they would have to build all the hardware to support it, people who would have to troubleshoot an issue that might show up on either the local or networked version of Windows, but not both, and from a security standpoint, since it seems like it would make it a lot easier to just hijack the whole computer using that kind of mechanism, with the user being none the wiser, for the most part.
Wouldn’t moving Windows into the cloud basically make computers non-functional without internet? Because I can see a few problems with that, particularly for those in rural areas or who are travelling a lot.
I’ve hesitated to switch over to Linux in recent years, primarily due to concerns about compatibility with software and games, but I’d rather have to find new art software than pay a subscription for an operating system that I can’t even use offline.
Steams work with proton, steam OS, and the steam deck means after switching my gaming pc to Linux last year, the only games out of the hundreds I have that don’t work are the ones whose launchers refuse to run on Linux.
Yeah I switched in 2020, but finally deleted my Windows partition a couple months ago. Never going back now.
And anymore, I feel like niche windows software is gonna be harder to run than almost all the games. The only games that don’t work are the annoying anticheat ones.
I’ve unfortunately still run into some issues running games on Pop_OS, most recently Street Fighter 6 which is weird since it runs perfectly on the steam deck. I still keep a windows installation mainly for games like that
I’d need to check into whether Linux is also viable with the software I use: I’m starting a game design degree in September, so there’s a wide variety of software, including the Adobe suite, that I’ll be tied to for at least the next three years.
My plan at the moment, I think, is to wait until I have a full list of which softwares I’ll be using (which I won’t get until the course begins - the college pays for it all), and then make a decision. Based on the partial list I have, about half are compatible with Linux. I do also have the option of having Linux on my desktop and Windows on my laptop.
I’m definitely going to do some more research. The last time I looked into it, Linux wasn’t compatible with the vast majority of the software I used and games I played, and there weren’t many suitable alternatives. That situation has definitely changed by the looks of it, so I just need to research some more specific things.
People have probably told you that Wine is the way to use it anyways, but maybe no one’s mentioned Bottles which makes using Wine dead easy. Most of the time you can sort of just open up Bottles, run the installer for the software through there, make sure Bottles knows where the .exe is for the actual program is and you’re good to go.
That’s a good strategy and it makes sense. Don’t forget that you don’t have to decide for one alternative or the other. You could always have multiple options available and use them as suitable.
Just out of curiosity: when was the last time you looked into Linux?
Oh, it was a good while ago. I thought it was 3 years, but it was definitely pre-Covid, so it’s probably more like 4 or 5 or more. I was annoyed with Windows (not that I can recall now exactly what it specifically did that irked me, but I do remember yelling at it so it was probably bad), so looked into alternatives, and the biggest thing that stopped me was the MMO I was playing a lot at the time was not compatible and nobody had found a way of convincing the two to work together. That has definitely changed since then.
Most software works with wine anymore, including the adobe suite. Be warned there is probably going to be some tinkering to get it working perfectly, but nothing a bit of searching can’t solve.
Gotta mention Pop_OS! as a fantastic beginner distro. My 72 year old mother refuses to use anything else. It’s simple, has automated backups and disaster recovery, and installs non-free drivers for graphics cards.
I don’t personally use it since it doesn’t yet support Wayland and my gaming rig has a HiDPI screen and X11 doesn’t support fractional scaling. Or per screen scaling.
I’m legally obligated to inform you that I run Arch.
I doubt people will pay for a windows subscription. Most will stay on 10/11 indefinitely and Microsoft will probably backtrack pretty quickly (look at windows 10 to 11 migration) 😉
And some will probably give Linux a try. I only stopped pirating Windows because it got free, but I have no intention to pay a subscription to be able to use my fucking PC.
Middle term? The phasing out of personal computers, and moving toward a system of servers/terminals where noone owns software.
You’ll rent computing power or storage space, you’ll only pay for the interface.
Long term, there is some benefit to this sort of concept. You aren’t going to have as much freedom to turn your cloud based OS into a custom build, but what you will have is a machine which will never have down time for patches and security updates. The user will be running their app remotely, using all the power and hardware of a data center, and the instance of the app can migrate from one host PC to another, seamlessly without any perception to the end user. Furthermore a user can access all their applications and data from whatever client they are using and it will migrate this session from their terminal, to their phone, to their AR HMDs.
It isn’t going to be a change which happens over night, and it will be more like how car engine have become less user serviceable but more reliable and efficient. It will be a different experience for sure, but it has potential value beyond being a way to charge people subscriptions.
a user can access all their applications and data from whatever client they are using
Also, users won’t own their most basic data anymore, nor will they be able to control how it is used. Canceling a subscription (or being locked out) could mean loosing it all.
For a business, I see this as a strong benefit for this design. The work done for a company is the property of that company by most hiring contracts, so the work done on a remote system can by tightly controlled. At the same time, it would allow someone to use their own thin client to do both professional and personal work and keep things isolated. For someone doing freelance work, it makes sharing a natural extension of that process and access can be granted or revoked as it relates to contracts. That seems like an advantage to corporate IT departments.
As for individuals, I don’t see how this takes away ownership. Regulations will be updated to allow users to request their data in compliance with GDPR requests, so nothing would become completely locked up. Should that be challenged ever, I don’t think any jurisdiction would say that Microsoft owns the data. What a user will be able to do with the bits they receive is a different question.
I understand your point (regarding protection of intellectual property and having a homogeneous and controlled IT infrastructure), but I’d like to add that as a business (disregarding what my employees might like or consider more effective) I am still not in control of anything if my data and applications are somewhere “in the cloud” and I have no control over it. As a company I would be bound to that provider (in this case Microsoft) and would have to pay whatever they require for whatever they offer(good or bad services). A small alleviation would be to have that “cloud” on premise, but I think that that’s highly unrealistic. In this regard, a business is very similar to the plain user in my previous reply.
Also, don’t forget that GDPR doesn’t apply everywhere. That’s just a EU requirement which might or might not be fully implemented, even when required. As I mentioned, there’s no guarantee that your company data is not misused when it’s completely out of your hands. Not even to think about what a security breach or outage would mean and what kind of impact it would have.
Please don’t get me wrong. I’m not trying to spread FUD, but I am general skeptical and trying to think critically. Moving “everything” in “the cloud”, in the hands of one single actor requires a level of trust which I’m not able to provide and introduces single points of failure which I wouldn’t like to have, neither as individual nor as company.
Ehhh we’ve been down that road before with thin clients. Anyone who has had to do their job on thin clients will tell you the experience never compares to running it locally
We have, and there are still things to solve before this is completely practical. This is still different than connecting to a mainframe over a 3270 terminal. A closer example of how this would work is port forwarding an X11 to a remote system or using SSH to tunnel to a server where I’ve ran screen. If I’ve connected to a GUI application running on a server or reconnected my SSH session, it is less important about where I’m connecting from. Extending this concept to Windows, you wouldn’t even need local storage for most needs. It won’t be practical for places with poor network connectivity, but where it is reliable, high bandwidth, and low latency, it won’t be so discernable from local use for most business applications. This is probably the biggest driving force behind XCloud. If Microsoft can make games run across networks with minimal problems, business applications are going to do just fine. XCloud works great for me, allowing me to stream with few problems. That’s less true for others in my family, so clearly this isn’t something which can roll out to everyone, everywhere, all at once. I think it would be great to be able to spin up additional vCPU cores or grow drive space or system RAM as needed per process so that I’m not wasting cycles or underutilizing my hardware. It seems like this would become possible with this sort of platform.
Yeah, but you will get the most basic machine made up of a screen, touchpad, keyboard, basic ARM CPU, wifi and framebuffer. Those will be sold as Windows 365 terminals for a low price. Probably even subsidised and sent free if you subscribe for a year ahead.
I’ve used what used to be the shadow PC (before OVH got hold of it). That was surprisingly good. Latency often so low I could play FPS, yes not as good as playing local. But still not dying every single round because of it. But it DID need a fair amount of bandwidth to look good (30Mb/s was the point I think quality started to drop).
But in the end I don’t want it to succeed, because if it does proper PC hardware will become hobbyist and niche. And we all know hobbyist niche items are expensive!
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Considering how stadia panned out, this is a nothing burger for at least the next decade.
It means Windows is switching to a subscription model. It could be a good thing for some Linux users, if they need Windows for specific applications and don’t want to spin up a VM. O can’t see a reason for using it beyond that, other than being forced to, because Microsoft kills off yoir local Windows and turns your computer for a bootloader for a cloud system, which is itself a bootloader for your browser, for most people. What a terrible world we live in. Zero privacy guaranteed, a subscription model making Windows more profitable (again).
ALSO, good luck stripping down Windows, removing bloatware, ads and telemetry. I GUARANTEE you it will be impossible to remove ads and telemetry on Windows in the Cloud. And thus that crap will be FORCED on you!
Precisely. Putting more of the control onto Microsoft server means this: you do anything that they don’t like? No Windows for you. Oh, now we need more money so now we’re putting in a shitty change, don’t like it? Suck it up.
User choice harms companies
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Double comment.
My bad, the app had an issue.
However, since most retail hardware is built to target Windows compatibility, it could mean fewer options for hardware that will be easy to install Linux (or any other OS) on.
In fact, I would count on Microsift making their hardware spec intentionally be difficult to load anything “unapproved” on.
they are doing that already with secureboot.
altho i fortunatley haven’t encountered machines yet where you can’t disable it.
It does not mean anything for me because I am not a Windows user. For Windows users it means subscription models and renting software. It could also mean eventually booting your computer into a desktop that is in the cloud. I hope to god that does not happen because it may make finding hardware that will run Linux and BSD that much harder.
I don’t think it’s possible for them to do so, because that would means killing the gaming aspect of Windows. GPU on cloud is stupidly overpriced and expensive, just look at Standard_NV6 for an example, it easily cost $10,000/yr according to this (Just look for anything that have “N” in it’s name for GPU enabled VM and they are all expensive.)
If they try to ban everyone from being allowed to use their own computer hardware, I really doubt people would stay on Windows, they most likely would be in the 5 stages of griefs and then contemplate on switching to either Linux or Mac OSX.
I personally don’t see the “Eureka!” moment that big tech apparently does in moving EVERYTHING to the cloud when they struggle to design safe and reliable services as is. The whole cloud stuff just kind of says “sure it will be a privacy nightmare rife for exploitation from bad actors, but THINK of the money we could earn from it in the long run!”
That’s basically it. They keep control. They can charge subscriptions. They own it. Not you.
Corporations will literally do anything except act remotely ethically towards consumers.
I don’t understand what any of this means. Windows is now just Edge?
It means I’ll continue to happily use Linux.
That’s cute. But there is software that only runs on Windows. And some people have to use it.
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Lol likewise!
I used to use OneDrive but they recently shrunk down everyone’s free storage capacity to laughably small space and now wish for everyone to subscribe to more paid space.
🖕🏼bye bye OneDrive.
Yeah, fuck one drive! Microsoft can eat my entire ass.
Haha, I second that
I’m out of the loop on this subject. I know Onedrive previously offered 15GB to free users, then strunk it to 5GB, but kept the larger amount to legacy users.
Have they made another reduction recently?
It means we’re about to see a lot more people asking for help with Linux.
I’ll be more than happy for more people to migrate to linux (or mac, but many people just can’t afford it) so MS doesn’t have such a monopoly on the OS space.
Honestly, I see that as a win.
That’s something I want to do, but I’m afraid of missing something while backing up up my files and losing it in the OS wipe. It’s a lousy excuse, I know, but it still stops me. Mostly since I play a lot of games and don’t want to lose any save files tucked away somewhere unexpected.
That stuff should all be in C:/Users, but what if its not. And would have to go to each of my installed pieces of software to make sure any of my files are properly backed up which is so much work. Which only reveals another issue that I am terrible at keeping my stuff backed up.
Buy a new hard drive, boot and run off that until you’re comfortable
Linux can run off a thumb drive, and continue to use your windows install drive as storage, losing you nothing at all.
More fees.
That sounds like a horrid decision. Imagine having to troubleshoot a relative’s computer, which isn’t working because their internet is down, or is too slow to support streaming Windows like that.
It just sounds like a nightmare all-round, both from a Microsoft Standpoint, since they would have to build all the hardware to support it, people who would have to troubleshoot an issue that might show up on either the local or networked version of Windows, but not both, and from a security standpoint, since it seems like it would make it a lot easier to just hijack the whole computer using that kind of mechanism, with the user being none the wiser, for the most part.
Guaranteed this is so they can run even more malicious proprietary software because client side malware scanners are a blocker for “progress”
And in the peak of all irony, they will likely have Linux running the client to stream in all the proprietary dogshit
Wouldn’t moving Windows into the cloud basically make computers non-functional without internet? Because I can see a few problems with that, particularly for those in rural areas or who are travelling a lot.
I’ve hesitated to switch over to Linux in recent years, primarily due to concerns about compatibility with software and games, but I’d rather have to find new art software than pay a subscription for an operating system that I can’t even use offline.
Omg are you in for a treat!
Steams work with proton, steam OS, and the steam deck means after switching my gaming pc to Linux last year, the only games out of the hundreds I have that don’t work are the ones whose launchers refuse to run on Linux.
Even Denuvo games work with a little effort
Highly recommend you give Linux another shot 😁
Yeah I switched in 2020, but finally deleted my Windows partition a couple months ago. Never going back now.
And anymore, I feel like niche windows software is gonna be harder to run than almost all the games. The only games that don’t work are the annoying anticheat ones.
went this route few weeks ago, went 100% pop os recently… good times.
fuck you microshit, i am gaming fine.
I’ve unfortunately still run into some issues running games on Pop_OS, most recently Street Fighter 6 which is weird since it runs perfectly on the steam deck. I still keep a windows installation mainly for games like that
I’d need to check into whether Linux is also viable with the software I use: I’m starting a game design degree in September, so there’s a wide variety of software, including the Adobe suite, that I’ll be tied to for at least the next three years.
It’s also worth to mention that there are options like Blender/Krita/Godot wich are quite good and don’t require tooling like Wine.
But those might not be a viable option if your courses are specific to Adobe products.
But really, check those out anyways, it’s worth it.
My plan at the moment, I think, is to wait until I have a full list of which softwares I’ll be using (which I won’t get until the course begins - the college pays for it all), and then make a decision. Based on the partial list I have, about half are compatible with Linux. I do also have the option of having Linux on my desktop and Windows on my laptop.
I’m definitely going to do some more research. The last time I looked into it, Linux wasn’t compatible with the vast majority of the software I used and games I played, and there weren’t many suitable alternatives. That situation has definitely changed by the looks of it, so I just need to research some more specific things.
For anything that you really can’t get on Linux:
People have probably told you that Wine is the way to use it anyways, but maybe no one’s mentioned Bottles which makes using Wine dead easy. Most of the time you can sort of just open up Bottles, run the installer for the software through there, make sure Bottles knows where the .exe is for the actual program is and you’re good to go.
it’s possible to run windows in a VM on Linux (Microsoft even provides one intended for developers)
That’s a good strategy and it makes sense. Don’t forget that you don’t have to decide for one alternative or the other. You could always have multiple options available and use them as suitable.
Just out of curiosity: when was the last time you looked into Linux?
Oh, it was a good while ago. I thought it was 3 years, but it was definitely pre-Covid, so it’s probably more like 4 or 5 or more. I was annoyed with Windows (not that I can recall now exactly what it specifically did that irked me, but I do remember yelling at it so it was probably bad), so looked into alternatives, and the biggest thing that stopped me was the MMO I was playing a lot at the time was not compatible and nobody had found a way of convincing the two to work together. That has definitely changed since then.
Most software works with wine anymore, including the adobe suite. Be warned there is probably going to be some tinkering to get it working perfectly, but nothing a bit of searching can’t solve.
Ngl, getting those tools working on Linux is going to be as marketable as working with them in the first place
Get hacking!
Ha! Yeah, I can definitely see that being an incredibly marketable skill, but I would not even know where to start!
Gotta mention Pop_OS! as a fantastic beginner distro. My 72 year old mother refuses to use anything else. It’s simple, has automated backups and disaster recovery, and installs non-free drivers for graphics cards.
I don’t personally use it since it doesn’t yet support Wayland and my gaming rig has a HiDPI screen and X11 doesn’t support fractional scaling. Or per screen scaling.
I’m legally obligated to inform you that I run Arch.
I doubt people will pay for a windows subscription. Most will stay on 10/11 indefinitely and Microsoft will probably backtrack pretty quickly (look at windows 10 to 11 migration) 😉
And some will probably give Linux a try. I only stopped pirating Windows because it got free, but I have no intention to pay a subscription to be able to use my fucking PC.
everytime I am tempted at thinking maybe give w11 a try then some news pop up about how badly they put ad in everywhere. :P
Middle term? The phasing out of personal computers, and moving toward a system of servers/terminals where noone owns software.
You’ll rent computing power or storage space, you’ll only pay for the interface.
deleted by creator
Long term, there is some benefit to this sort of concept. You aren’t going to have as much freedom to turn your cloud based OS into a custom build, but what you will have is a machine which will never have down time for patches and security updates. The user will be running their app remotely, using all the power and hardware of a data center, and the instance of the app can migrate from one host PC to another, seamlessly without any perception to the end user. Furthermore a user can access all their applications and data from whatever client they are using and it will migrate this session from their terminal, to their phone, to their AR HMDs.
It isn’t going to be a change which happens over night, and it will be more like how car engine have become less user serviceable but more reliable and efficient. It will be a different experience for sure, but it has potential value beyond being a way to charge people subscriptions.
Also, users won’t own their most basic data anymore, nor will they be able to control how it is used. Canceling a subscription (or being locked out) could mean loosing it all.
For a business, I see this as a strong benefit for this design. The work done for a company is the property of that company by most hiring contracts, so the work done on a remote system can by tightly controlled. At the same time, it would allow someone to use their own thin client to do both professional and personal work and keep things isolated. For someone doing freelance work, it makes sharing a natural extension of that process and access can be granted or revoked as it relates to contracts. That seems like an advantage to corporate IT departments.
As for individuals, I don’t see how this takes away ownership. Regulations will be updated to allow users to request their data in compliance with GDPR requests, so nothing would become completely locked up. Should that be challenged ever, I don’t think any jurisdiction would say that Microsoft owns the data. What a user will be able to do with the bits they receive is a different question.
I understand your point (regarding protection of intellectual property and having a homogeneous and controlled IT infrastructure), but I’d like to add that as a business (disregarding what my employees might like or consider more effective) I am still not in control of anything if my data and applications are somewhere “in the cloud” and I have no control over it. As a company I would be bound to that provider (in this case Microsoft) and would have to pay whatever they require for whatever they offer(good or bad services). A small alleviation would be to have that “cloud” on premise, but I think that that’s highly unrealistic. In this regard, a business is very similar to the plain user in my previous reply.
Also, don’t forget that GDPR doesn’t apply everywhere. That’s just a EU requirement which might or might not be fully implemented, even when required. As I mentioned, there’s no guarantee that your company data is not misused when it’s completely out of your hands. Not even to think about what a security breach or outage would mean and what kind of impact it would have.
Please don’t get me wrong. I’m not trying to spread FUD, but I am general skeptical and trying to think critically. Moving “everything” in “the cloud”, in the hands of one single actor requires a level of trust which I’m not able to provide and introduces single points of failure which I wouldn’t like to have, neither as individual nor as company.
Thanks for reading my longest post ever. ;-)
Ehhh we’ve been down that road before with thin clients. Anyone who has had to do their job on thin clients will tell you the experience never compares to running it locally
We have, and there are still things to solve before this is completely practical. This is still different than connecting to a mainframe over a 3270 terminal. A closer example of how this would work is port forwarding an X11 to a remote system or using SSH to tunnel to a server where I’ve ran screen. If I’ve connected to a GUI application running on a server or reconnected my SSH session, it is less important about where I’m connecting from. Extending this concept to Windows, you wouldn’t even need local storage for most needs. It won’t be practical for places with poor network connectivity, but where it is reliable, high bandwidth, and low latency, it won’t be so discernable from local use for most business applications. This is probably the biggest driving force behind XCloud. If Microsoft can make games run across networks with minimal problems, business applications are going to do just fine. XCloud works great for me, allowing me to stream with few problems. That’s less true for others in my family, so clearly this isn’t something which can roll out to everyone, everywhere, all at once. I think it would be great to be able to spin up additional vCPU cores or grow drive space or system RAM as needed per process so that I’m not wasting cycles or underutilizing my hardware. It seems like this would become possible with this sort of platform.
It’s actually nonsense because you would still need some software on your computer to connect to the internet in the first place
Yeah, but you will get the most basic machine made up of a screen, touchpad, keyboard, basic ARM CPU, wifi and framebuffer. Those will be sold as Windows 365 terminals for a low price. Probably even subsidised and sent free if you subscribe for a year ahead.
I’ve used what used to be the shadow PC (before OVH got hold of it). That was surprisingly good. Latency often so low I could play FPS, yes not as good as playing local. But still not dying every single round because of it. But it DID need a fair amount of bandwidth to look good (30Mb/s was the point I think quality started to drop).
But in the end I don’t want it to succeed, because if it does proper PC hardware will become hobbyist and niche. And we all know hobbyist niche items are expensive!
Why do you think they are suddenly so “friendly” with open source?