TO EVERYONE SAYING THAT THIS IS NOT A CONCERN: Everybody has different laws in their countries (in other words, not everyone is American), and whether or not an admin is liable for such content residing in their servers without their knowledge, don’t you think it’s still an issue anyway? Are you not bothered by the fact that somebody could be sharing illegal images from your server without you ever knowing? Is that okay with you? OR are you only saying this because you’re NOT an admin? Different admins have already responded in the comments and have suggested ways to solve the problem because they are genuinely concerned about this problem as much as I am. Thank you to all the hard working admins. I appreciate and love you all.
You can upload images to a Lemmy instance without anyone knowing that the image is there if the admins are not regularly checking their pictrs database.
To do this, you create a post on any Lemmy instance, upload an image, and never click the “Create” button. The post is never created but the image is uploaded. Because the post isn’t created, nobody knows that the image is uploaded.
You can also go to any post, upload a picture in the comment, copy the URL and never post the comment. You can also upload an image as your avatar or banner and just close the tab. The image will still reside in the server.
You can (possibly) do the same with community icons and banners.
Why does this matter?
Because anyone can upload illegal images without the admin knowing and the admin will be liable for it. With everything that has been going on lately, I wanted to remind all of you about this. Don’t think that disabling cache is enough. Bad actors can secretly stash illegal images on your Lemmy instance if you aren’t checking!
These bad actors can then share these links around and you would never know! They can report it to the FBI and if you haven’t taken it down (because you did not know) for a certain period, say goodbye to your instance and see you in court.
Only your backend admins who have access to the database (or object storage or whatever) can check this, meaning non-backend admins and moderators WILL NOT BE ABLE TO MONITOR THESE, and regular users WILL NOT BE ABLE TO REPORT THESE.
Aren’t these images deleted if they aren’t used for the post/comment/banner/avatar/icon?
NOPE! The image actually stays uploaded! Lemmy doesn’t check if the images are used! Try it out yourself. Just make sure to copy the link by copying the link text or copying it by clicking the image then “copy image link”.
How come this hasn’t been addressed before?
I don’t know. I am fairly certain that this has been brought up before. Nobody paid attention but I’m bringing it up again after all the shit that happened in the past week. I can’t even find it on the GitHub issue tracker.
I’m an instance administrator, what the fuck do I do?
Check your pictrs images (good luck) or nuke it. Disable pictrs, restrict sign ups, or watch your database like a hawk. You can also delete your instance.
Are individuals granted the same 230 protections as organizations when it comes to self-hosting an instance? I doubt people are forming non-profits for their self hosting endeavors
Yes. Section 230 has no requirements that someone needs to form a non-profit or anything like that. It applies to anyone who has responsibility for a website that accepts user submitted content, or more widely anything on the Internet not created by yourself. whether a private individual or a giant corporation.
Thank you! That’s a clear and concise explanation of section 230. I’ve always heard it in reference to big social media companies but your link clearly shows the protections extend to individuals and users as well
These bad actors can then share these links around and you would never know! They can report it to the FBI and if you haven’t taken it down (because you did not know) for a certain period, say goodbye to your instance and see you in court.
In most jurisdictions this is not now it would work. Even a less tech savvy investigator would figure out that it was an online community not obviously affiliated with CSAM, and focus on alerting you and getting the content removed.
There’s this misunderstanding that CSAM is some sort of instant go-to-prison situation, but it really does depend on context. It’s generally not so easy to just plant illegal files and tip off the FBI, because the FBI is strategic enough not to be weaponized like that. Keep an eye on your abuse and admin email inboxes, and take action as soon as you see something, and nobody is going to shut you down or drag you to court.
It’s not. Image hosting sites have existed for decades. Websites are not liable unless they have actual knowledge of illegal content and ignore takedown requests. Stop fearmongering.
Never said otherwise, I just want to make sure we’re not scaring people away from Lemmy administration and moderation, as if they were risking going to prison as a child sex offender or something.
This has been known forever. Any bad actor already knows about this. There’s no reason to hide this. I am reminding people so solutions can be solved sooner. I will keep reminding until the problem is solved.
Meh. I main 4chan. All sorts of shit get uploaded on 4chan, yet it still exists. I’m not saying nothing should be done, but no need to panic. Quietly delete the images periodically. In terms of what users can do, I suggest a report system where after a certain number of similar reports, the media gets auto pulled for moderation.
“Quietly delete the images periodically”. If only it was made easier for admins. You can’t even report these images because nobody knows it was there in the first place.
Thank you. I did not see this one but it’s almost two months old now. This is what I was talking about when I said that it was already a known issue back then. it just isn’t being addressed. I hope this post will give more attention to this problem.
Here is another test ^ I use a different instance to better illustrate the point because it’s easy to upload images in comments. Nobody in shitjustworks will see this picture in their instance so nobody can report this picture.
Yes, an app designed to receive user generated content will allow users to upload arbitrary content. This is not really an issue unique to Lemmy, and can be fixed by banning abusive users
Except admins need to go through the database to catch it. Mods can’t catch it. Admins without access to the database or object storage can’t catch it.
Sites like reddit could have about the same problem. You can post to some obscure profile and use reddit as image hosting and it might take quite some time before anyone notices. This is a little worse though because it wouldn’t even be listed on a profile page.
It would not be difficult to use SQL to delete any images that are not associated with a post or active as an avatar etc. So, set that to be run periodically and it would solve this problem.
Checking every single image ID against all stored text blobs is not trivial. Most platforms don’t do this. It’s cheaper to just ignore the unused images.
Not familiar with Lemmy specifically, but usually in an app like this, while of course the files are stored on a filesystem, IDs and metadata are stored in the DB and associated with each other through relations. It seems in this case one way to express it would be ‘don’t delete every image that is associated with a valid post or in-use avatar, but delete everything else’.
Highly likely the way it works is there is an entry for post 4130981 that says it uses ede63269-7b8a-42a4-a1fa-145beea682cb, or an image table with a relation to the post table where an image entry (with whatever ID) that is ede63269-7b8a-42a4-a1fa-145beea682cb says it is related to post 4130981. Whatever the specifics, it would be possible.
I haven’t worked with Lemmy, but I certainly could craft a script to do that if I was familiar with the database structure. Perhaps I’ll try installing it and running an instance. In the meantime, surely there’s someone with an instance and SQL skills who could figure that out.
Or just disable image uploads completely. We got by on Reddit without any built-in image hosting functionality for over a decade, so Lemmy should be fine without it as well - especially considering that we don’t really have many image-heavy communities, besides the NSFW instances. I mean, storage costs money you know, and with Lemmy being run by volunteers, it makes even more sense to get rid of image hosting to save costs.
This can be easily implemented client-side, like how third-party Reddit clients have been doing for years, by uploading to the likes of Imgur. Shift the responsibility away from the Lemmy server and onto dedicated image hosts, who have the storage to spare, plus manpower/policies to deal with illegal content.
So do Desktop tools like Flameshot, which can directly upload to image hosts and copy the URL to the clipboard which makes it easy to share images, and there also exists third-party Desktop web-clients such as Photon, which could be updated with that functionality as well. But with Lemmy itself being open source, it wouldn’t take much effort to modify the code to use a third-party image host.
have a history of deciding to forbid hotlinking
There are plenty of hosts which do allow hotlinking though, like imgbb.com
history of suddenly deleting all (e.g. PhotoBucket) or some (e.g. Imgur) images .
Not a big loss, IMO. Lemmy isn’t an image hosting nor an image-centric site, it’s a text-heavy forum at first instance, and anyone posting images are encouraged to provide text alts for the benefit of blind users, so images not persisting isn’t a big deal.
If image persistence is really that important, there are other services which are better suited for that, such as Pixelfed. But in the first place, I wouldn’t rely on some random Lemmy server, which is vulnerable to DDoS and other attacks and could go down at any time (also why the importance on decentralization - no single instance is infallible). I mean, when there’s no guarantee that a Lemmy instance will even be there tomorrow, is there really a need to worry about image persistence?
I’m not using lemmy. But I was thinking of making a process to periodically scan the object storage and check for a reference to a post, comment etc and if none are found delete it. In most cases the images are deleted but sometimes they don’t seem to be.
Probably lemmy could have a similar process created.
This is how it works. Since pictrs and Lemmy are two completely different applications (they even run in two different containers with two different databases) they do not communicate and tracking what images belong to what post or comment simply isn’t possible in the current state I guess.
How come this hasn’t been addressed before?
This is how the Fediverse works. There is so much bad practices, so much haphazardly implemented functionality and so much bad API documentation all over the place that I wonder why nothing has extremely exploded so far. We don’t even have proper data protection and everything is replicated to everywhere causing a shitload of legal issues all over the workd but no-one seems to care so far.
This isn’t unique to Lemmy or haphazard coding. It’s a common technique to get pictures into Github READMEs this way. You’d create a PR, upload an image, copy the link, delete the PR, and then paste the link elsewhere on Github for use.
The difference between the Fediverse and a closed system like reddit is that it’s open and we’re privy to haphazardly implemented functionality and bad API documentation.
I work on big closed source web apps for a living; they’re just as haphazard and badly documented, it’s just all closed.
Or you set a flag that says something like “incomplete image” and then only once user completes whatever operation by hitting “submit” do you then set it to complete.
And maybe while an image is not yet complete, only the uploading user can view the image.
Or just mark the resource as private and only serve it to the user who created it until they associate a post with it.
You would probably need a separate server to stage images like this, as your main image server probably shouldn’t have a login wall, which probably slightly complicates things but not badly.
Or make it like 1hr and don’t let the user know the url of the uploaded image until they post it, that way it wouldn’t be able to be shared or reported.
It’s difficult to display an image without the client knowing the URL, but it would be possible to use a temporary URL that only works for that signed-in user.
What happens if user spends over 3 minutes to write the post after uploading image?
Would user create a post with broken image link? or would there be some kind of “call home” API call on create post page so image wouldn’t be removed? (which has risk that API call could be replicated by a bot)
That is a good point. Could potentially not upload the image until the post is created instead of at image choosing, which would also alleviate the issue. But I’m not sure how that would work across web and mobile clients.
I think that’s the best solution. I can’t see a reason any client couldn’t upload the image when the post is submitted. Currently the uploader is some fancy javascript deal and it’s unnecessary.
This could be handled by the client. Get the Ruleset for image uploads (max size, format, etc.), Validate the image within the client, only upload when the post is published.
Then the delay between post and image only depends on your internet connection and the user can still take 3 hours to write a post.
As in when you’d normally get automatically logged out? If so, I’m not sure that would work since Lemmy uses JWTs that don’t expire (or if they do, not for a very long time) it seems.
You are not logged in. However you can subscribe from another Fediverse account, for example Lemmy or Mastodon. To do this, paste the following into the search field of your instance: !selfhosted@lemmy.world
A place to share alternatives to popular online services that can be self-hosted without giving up privacy or locking you into a service you don’t control.
Rules:
Be civil: we’re here to support and learn from one another. Insults won’t be tolerated. Flame wars are frowned upon.
No spam posting.
Posts have to be centered around self-hosting. There are other communities for discussing hardware or home computing. If it’s not obvious why your post topic revolves around selfhosting, please include details to make it clear.
Don’t duplicate the full text of your blog or github here. Just post the link for folks to click.
Submission headline should match the article title (don’t cherry-pick information from the title to fit your agenda).
In the USA, admins being liable is not really true
Are individuals granted the same 230 protections as organizations when it comes to self-hosting an instance? I doubt people are forming non-profits for their self hosting endeavors
Yes. Section 230 has no requirements that someone needs to form a non-profit or anything like that. It applies to anyone who has responsibility for a website that accepts user submitted content, or more widely anything on the Internet not created by yourself. whether a private individual or a giant corporation.
https://www.eff.org/issues/cda230 describes it in more detail, but to give you an example, even forwarding an email from someone else to a mailing list has some protection (https://www.eff.org/issues/cda230/cases/batzel-v-smith)
Thank you! That’s a clear and concise explanation of section 230. I’ve always heard it in reference to big social media companies but your link clearly shows the protections extend to individuals and users as well
Most admins aren’t in the USA. But that’s not really the issue here is it?
…
In most jurisdictions this is not now it would work. Even a less tech savvy investigator would figure out that it was an online community not obviously affiliated with CSAM, and focus on alerting you and getting the content removed.
There’s this misunderstanding that CSAM is some sort of instant go-to-prison situation, but it really does depend on context. It’s generally not so easy to just plant illegal files and tip off the FBI, because the FBI is strategic enough not to be weaponized like that. Keep an eye on your abuse and admin email inboxes, and take action as soon as you see something, and nobody is going to shut you down or drag you to court.
Doesn’t change the fact that this is an issue that needs to be resolved.
It’s not. Image hosting sites have existed for decades. Websites are not liable unless they have actual knowledge of illegal content and ignore takedown requests. Stop fearmongering.
Doesn’t change the fact that this issue needs to be addressed. Besides, do you think all countries laws are the same?
Never said otherwise, I just want to make sure we’re not scaring people away from Lemmy administration and moderation, as if they were risking going to prison as a child sex offender or something.
In theory also possible to just be a nuisance by filling out the instances available space? That sounds like it’s gonna get fixed one way or another.
Yes - that’s possible.
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Just my two cents, but I feel it’s quite irresponsible to post a “how to exploit this platform” guide ON the platform.
This has been known forever. Any bad actor already knows about this. There’s no reason to hide this. I am reminding people so solutions can be solved sooner. I will keep reminding until the problem is solved.
Meh. I main 4chan. All sorts of shit get uploaded on 4chan, yet it still exists. I’m not saying nothing should be done, but no need to panic. Quietly delete the images periodically. In terms of what users can do, I suggest a report system where after a certain number of similar reports, the media gets auto pulled for moderation.
“Quietly delete the images periodically”. If only it was made easier for admins. You can’t even report these images because nobody knows it was there in the first place.
Yeah, it’s been acknowledged and solutions have been discussed as future Todos
https://github.com/LemmyNet/lemmy/pull/1809#discussion_r889164824
https://github.com/LemmyNet/lemmy/issues/3504
I imagine it should be prioritized though, along with some of the other malicious upload issue mitigation bugs.
Thank you. I did not see this one but it’s almost two months old now. This is what I was talking about when I said that it was already a known issue back then. it just isn’t being addressed. I hope this post will give more attention to this problem.
So many weird issues… Thanks for posting this.
Did you submit an issue?
I’m not on GitHub. Someone else can submit it this and I’m very sure the Lemmy devs are aware. They just have different priorities.
https://programming.dev/pictrs/image/9cd1e9f4-ba82-432c-91ce-911db05ccc6e.jpeg testing the linking of a picture that’s never been posted for science.
I can see it. It’s a very nice artwork.
https://sh.itjust.works/pictrs/image/08ff5623-e553-4d00-a6e2-e9fb6798a972.webp
Here is another test ^ I use a different instance to better illustrate the point because it’s easy to upload images in comments. Nobody in shitjustworks will see this picture in their instance so nobody can report this picture.
This picture is just Salvadaor Dali by the way.
Yes, an app designed to receive user generated content will allow users to upload arbitrary content. This is not really an issue unique to Lemmy, and can be fixed by banning abusive users
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Except admins need to go through the database to catch it. Mods can’t catch it. Admins without access to the database or object storage can’t catch it.
As far as I know, people don’t homebrew Reddit.
Sites like reddit could have about the same problem. You can post to some obscure profile and use reddit as image hosting and it might take quite some time before anyone notices. This is a little worse though because it wouldn’t even be listed on a profile page.
It would not be difficult to use SQL to delete any images that are not associated with a post or active as an avatar etc. So, set that to be run periodically and it would solve this problem.
Checking every single image ID against all stored text blobs is not trivial. Most platforms don’t do this. It’s cheaper to just ignore the unused images.
Yeah, this is only if what OP was saying was a real legal threat, which I don’t think it is.
Isn’t it more likely that paths are used to reference resources like images rather than a db fk?
Not familiar with Lemmy specifically, but usually in an app like this, while of course the files are stored on a filesystem, IDs and metadata are stored in the DB and associated with each other through relations. It seems in this case one way to express it would be ‘don’t delete every image that is associated with a valid post or in-use avatar, but delete everything else’.
Take this random image for instance: https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/ede63269-7b8a-42a4-a1fa-145beea682cb.jpeg
associated with this post: https://lemmy.world/post/4130981
Highly likely the way it works is there is an entry for post 4130981 that says it uses ede63269-7b8a-42a4-a1fa-145beea682cb, or an image table with a relation to the post table where an image entry (with whatever ID) that is ede63269-7b8a-42a4-a1fa-145beea682cb says it is related to post 4130981. Whatever the specifics, it would be possible.
I’m not knowledgeable with SQL. If you know or if anyone knows how to fix it with a script or built into Lemmy, please share.
I haven’t worked with Lemmy, but I certainly could craft a script to do that if I was familiar with the database structure. Perhaps I’ll try installing it and running an instance. In the meantime, surely there’s someone with an instance and SQL skills who could figure that out.
Yeah it shouldn’t be hard at all. Just need to know the link between images and posts.
Or just disable image uploads completely. We got by on Reddit without any built-in image hosting functionality for over a decade, so Lemmy should be fine without it as well - especially considering that we don’t really have many image-heavy communities, besides the NSFW instances. I mean, storage costs money you know, and with Lemmy being run by volunteers, it makes even more sense to get rid of image hosting to save costs.
💯 I really hope this is in the next update
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catbox exists
This can be easily implemented client-side, like how third-party Reddit clients have been doing for years, by uploading to the likes of Imgur. Shift the responsibility away from the Lemmy server and onto dedicated image hosts, who have the storage to spare, plus manpower/policies to deal with illegal content.
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So do Desktop tools like Flameshot, which can directly upload to image hosts and copy the URL to the clipboard which makes it easy to share images, and there also exists third-party Desktop web-clients such as Photon, which could be updated with that functionality as well. But with Lemmy itself being open source, it wouldn’t take much effort to modify the code to use a third-party image host.
There are plenty of hosts which do allow hotlinking though, like imgbb.com
Not a big loss, IMO. Lemmy isn’t an image hosting nor an image-centric site, it’s a text-heavy forum at first instance, and anyone posting images are encouraged to provide text alts for the benefit of blind users, so images not persisting isn’t a big deal.
If image persistence is really that important, there are other services which are better suited for that, such as Pixelfed. But in the first place, I wouldn’t rely on some random Lemmy server, which is vulnerable to DDoS and other attacks and could go down at any time (also why the importance on decentralization - no single instance is infallible). I mean, when there’s no guarantee that a Lemmy instance will even be there tomorrow, is there really a need to worry about image persistence?
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I don’t have the pictrs container running on my instance.
There really needs to be an option for instances to upload images to imgur using their API.
imgur has been hosting images for years, and has the resources and experience to deal with stuff like CSAM.
It shouldn’t be the default/only option that hosting an instance means having to open the floodgates for anyone to upload images to their servers.
From a liability standpoint alone, it’s an absurd thing to just expect every instance to accept.
Yes. This is a great alternative solution.
I’m not using lemmy. But I was thinking of making a process to periodically scan the object storage and check for a reference to a post, comment etc and if none are found delete it. In most cases the images are deleted but sometimes they don’t seem to be.
Probably lemmy could have a similar process created.
This is how it works. Since pictrs and Lemmy are two completely different applications (they even run in two different containers with two different databases) they do not communicate and tracking what images belong to what post or comment simply isn’t possible in the current state I guess.
This is how the Fediverse works. There is so much bad practices, so much haphazardly implemented functionality and so much bad API documentation all over the place that I wonder why nothing has extremely exploded so far. We don’t even have proper data protection and everything is replicated to everywhere causing a shitload of legal issues all over the workd but no-one seems to care so far.
Sounds like the Internet Protocol I grew up with 😍
This isn’t unique to Lemmy or haphazard coding. It’s a common technique to get pictures into Github READMEs this way. You’d create a PR, upload an image, copy the link, delete the PR, and then paste the link elsewhere on Github for use.
The difference between the Fediverse and a closed system like reddit is that it’s open and we’re privy to haphazardly implemented functionality and bad API documentation.
I work on big closed source web apps for a living; they’re just as haphazard and badly documented, it’s just all closed.
seems like the solution to this should be to automatically remove images that haven’t been posted, after like 3 minutes
Or you set a flag that says something like “incomplete image” and then only once user completes whatever operation by hitting “submit” do you then set it to complete.
And maybe while an image is not yet complete, only the uploading user can view the image.
3 minutes is way too short. You could upload and it be gone by the time you post.
Or just mark the resource as private and only serve it to the user who created it until they associate a post with it.
You would probably need a separate server to stage images like this, as your main image server probably shouldn’t have a login wall, which probably slightly complicates things but not badly.
This is one way to solve it.
Or make it like 1hr and don’t let the user know the url of the uploaded image until they post it, that way it wouldn’t be able to be shared or reported.
It’s difficult to display an image without the client knowing the URL, but it would be possible to use a temporary URL that only works for that signed-in user.
Store the image in memory, or in browser cache.
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The 3 minutes would only kick in if an image was uploaded but then never posted. So nobody would see it anyway in any case.
This route would avoid the issue but also help save on space too.
What happens if user spends over 3 minutes to write the post after uploading image?
Would user create a post with broken image link? or would there be some kind of “call home” API call on create post page so image wouldn’t be removed? (which has risk that API call could be replicated by a bot)
That is a good point. Could potentially not upload the image until the post is created instead of at image choosing, which would also alleviate the issue. But I’m not sure how that would work across web and mobile clients.
I think that’s the best solution. I can’t see a reason any client couldn’t upload the image when the post is submitted. Currently the uploader is some fancy javascript deal and it’s unnecessary.
Write the post and then upload the image?
This could be handled by the client. Get the Ruleset for image uploads (max size, format, etc.), Validate the image within the client, only upload when the post is published.
Then the delay between post and image only depends on your internet connection and the user can still take 3 hours to write a post.
Could allow for like one hour of keep-alive pings before it’s deleted and the client is told to notify the user of this
Also: rate limits that gradually increase are good.
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The solution is to base it upon the user session timer.
As in when you’d normally get automatically logged out? If so, I’m not sure that would work since Lemmy uses JWTs that don’t expire (or if they do, not for a very long time) it seems.