The future of selfhosted services is going to be… Android?
Wait, what?
Think about it. At some point everyone has had an old phone lying around. They are designed to be constantly connected, constantly on… and even have a battery and potentially still a SIM card to survive power outages.
We just need to make it easy to create APK packaged servers that can avoid battery-optimization kills and automatically configure an outbound tunnel like ngrok, zerotrust, etc…
The goal: hosting services like #nextcloud, #syncthing, #mastodon!? should be as easy as installing an APK and leaving an old phone connected to a spare charger / outlet.
It would be tempting to have an optimized ROM, but if self-hosting is meant to become more commonplace, installing an APK should be all that’s needed. #Android can do SSH, VPN and other tunnels without the need for root, so there should be no problem in using tunnels to publicly expose a phone/server in a secure manner.
In regards to the suitability of home-grade broadband, I believe that it should not be a huge problem at least in Europe where home connections are most often unmetered: “At the end of June 2021, 70.2% of EU homes were passed by either FTTP or cable DOCSIS
3.1 networks, i.e. those technologies currently capable of supporting gigabit speeds.”
PS. syncthing actually already has an APK and is easy to use. Although I had to sort out some battery optimization stuff, it’s a good example of what should become much more commonplace.
You absolutely want to remove the batteries. Otherwise they would die of old age pretty soon and then it creates danger of fire. Either a new battery for your ‘server’ every 5 years, or some tinkering solution, maybe supercapacitors.
Then you need an OS with long term support/maintenance. Not stock Android, because it evolves away from old hardware too fast. Maybe something like Lineage.
One problem remains: I have serious doubts about the network interface, if it can handle high throughput or many connections, like a webserver for several users, or even torrenting. A NAS for 1 person seems very possible, though.
I run 4 mail servers, 2 game servers, 3 directory/auth servers, a firewall/router, a NAS, a security system server, a media server, a monitoring server, and a couple others. Android ain’t gonna cut it.
Just to clarify, the the whole point is that Android makes it easy for less tech oriented people to host small single user / family services.
It does not need to be perfect, have massive throughput or allow for massive amounts of read/write cycles.
If people can host their own media server like Jellyfin or note taking apps like Joplin instead of using commercial services by simply installing an APK on an old phone they can leave connected at home, that’s already a big win.
Regarding device longevity, Android 13 apparently supports / will support full KVM emulation. Windows can be run if you have root while android based VMs are expected to be possible without the need for root. Since this type of virtualization allows VMs to run their own kernel, keeping the “server app” updated should allow the user to be protected even if the host OS is outdated as long as these server-app-VMs are trustworthy themselves.
Regarding device longevity, Android 13 apparently supports / will support full KVM emulation. Windows can be run if you have root while android based VMs are expected to be possible without the need for root. Since this type of virtualization allows VMs to run their own kernel, keeping the “server app” updated should allow the user to be protected even if the host OS is outdated as long as these server-app-VMs are trustworthy themselves
Pass, I’ll take the cluster of raspberry pis for the same cost… For the purpose of self hosting my cluster is going to out perform your x86. Like why are you going to spend hundreds of dollars for an x86 that will do fine when you can spend $50 for a pi that will also do fine?
Then you can just cluster those pis and get redundancy
You’ve got it backwards, a small x86 box is more cost effective for better performance. With a raspberry pi you’re paying for the form factor (and often scarcity)
You can get a wyse thin client on eBay for $50, and if you’re clustering the pis it’s not $50 anymore, so you can get a real computer on woot in the $150 range.
Either of those options will run circles around a pi/pi cluster.
This isn’t even true. A Pi sells for 50$ yes, + USB cable for power + USB power adapter + case + whatever else money grab.
A second hand HP mini with an i5 7th gen CPU that is WAY faster comes with everything including 8 GB of RAM and 256GB of SSD (or better if you get a good deal) for around 80$. Tell me about your math again…
Insulting my reading ability and math skills would work better if you weren’t making a fool of yourself.
I gave you an example of a $50 x86 PC and mentioned the more expensive options because you brought up building a pi cluster in your first response to me, at which point you’re not talking about spending $50 anymore.
The main point is that either the thin client or the slightly more expensive computer will runs circles around your pi(s) for the same price.
@Wander@selfhosted this whole “We are walking about with entirely reasonable servers in our pockets for reasonable scales - why doesn’t it feel like that?” thing is in my brain quite a bit.
@benjohn@selfhosted 6-8 GB of RAM with powerful CPU and GPU that was designed to run games and can in some cases run small AI models is nothing to scoff at imho.
@Wander@selfhosted Unlikely, the biggest issue android devices have is hardware support due to the ARM CPU architecture. It’s just not as useful as old x86 hardware, you’re stuck with old outdated and vulnerable firmware. My opinion is that one of the selling points of ARM hardware for device vendors is it’s relative impossibility to get open source driver support. You may see some use of Apple M1 and M2 simply because it’s a smaller FOSS support target, but android devices vary too much.
I mean, android is fine I guess, but it’s being pushed to be less and less able to be separated from Google. I think for a lot of people interested in self hosting, there’s a low amount of interest in it because of that.
@southsamurai Oh that’s definitely a huge concern, but not just for self-hosting but for privacy in general.
But still, if the average joe wants to self-host something using an old phone is probably the easiest way to get them to try self-hosted alternatives and drop corporate / commercial services.
Maybe not the ‘average average joe’ such as my parents, but anyone who is minimally curious enough to do stuff such as registering a domain, setting up a game server for friends and maybe has opened the CMD windows console once or twice in the past following a tutorial. That kind of demographic (IDK if it has a name) might be much more inclined to self-host if it was as easy as installing an APK and letting your phone one somewhere at home.
Overall as long as Android doesn’t become straight out malicious spyware itself, the benefit of dropping commercial alternatives might very well be a net positive. In a worst-case scenario, any tunnel / vpn configuration necessary to expose a service to the internet could also add an automated step to blackhole requests to google’s tracking servers.
@Omniraptor ah yes! Probably that’s why.
Actually the whole original post was sent via Mastodon.
I tend to write posts that I share to my Mastodon followers and then at the end I mention a Lemmy community if I believe the community would also find it interesting.
That is so cool I didn’t realize lemmy and mastodon were different views into the same database, assumed they were different services with no overlap except some underlying tech (I don’t know much about fediverse structure). But how does that work with like, character limits? Iirc lemmy can have much longer comments
@Omniraptor in theory Mastodon will show a “read more” button for longer comments. Top level posts sent from Lemmy often require clicking the link to view them in full and content isn’t ordered by votes because they don’t exist.
So, it’s a bit messy to read Lemmy from Mastodon, but posting something and then replying to comments on that thread is really easy.
@Omniraptor@Wander Probably user is limited during writing by own instance limit and longer posts of others could be displayed. I saw this between mastodon/misskey instances with various limits, probably it could be similar for lemmy/kbin federation. Currently I am writing this on small mastodon server with 20k limit (never used this fully yet…)
Who provides the software and firmware updates for my antique Samsung S4 and Galaxy young?
I hope you will give me some firmware for the old snapdragon.
Don’t forget the loads of Exynos CPUs and loads of GPUs from different vendors.
I think there’s some truth to it. But I imagine it will be more AOSP than what android is with google services.
AOSP is really a great operating system with very good security and built in features.
And with neural engines and high bandwidth emmc, it is mostly just lacking a large amount of storage to make it all complete, but the latest SOCs are most probably powerful enough.
Is there something like docker for android? :)
Edit: I do recognize what someone else said, which is that one big challenge would be software updates. We are not that limited by hardware when we consider servers, they can easily run for years with regular software updates.
I feel like Android is adding some new power saving “feature” with every version to kill all the useful stuff I want to keep running in the background.
Last stupid thing I remember was when it removed my CalDAV synchronisation because I haven’t been “using” the CalDAV app for some months.
Not to mention all the times it decides to kill something you want to use because it thinks the RAM would be more needed elsewhere. Honestly my 128 MB RAM Nokia N900 could run more apps at the same time than my 4 GB RAM Fairphone.
Yeah, android is a lot like Windows in that they make choices that might benefit users who don’t know what’s going on but interrupts or harms things power users are doing. They are just better at not being as annoying with it and don’t beg people to use their default programs.
You’re right, that’s a feature if you’re a regular phone user and a bug if you want it as a server.
Also, even if the application is still running you can have the os almost fully shutdown even if it’s charging. Again, it’s a behavior tuned for a typical user.
Think about it, those phones might work right now but in 10 years their Android versions will not support anything, they wont even have root certificate updates breaking SSL, the kernel will be missing support for whatever people need and whatnot. Maybe the phones won’t even boot because some key will expire somewhere… let alone security vulnerabilities.
Just look at the past, software and hardware as way simpler and way less locked down and it doesn’t work out. Just try to use a Windows XP to access the Internet and/or install modern software.
All you have to do is look at the present… Android phones don’t have super long software support. Best you’re looking at is maybe 5 years. So, the user saying 10 years is well past that mark.
Looking at the present, I’m not aware of android devices not booting 10 years after they were released. In fact, my 2013 MotoX is still a perfectly usable phone for many purposes. I had to use it for a few weeks a couple years ago because my phone broke.
You are not logged in. However you can subscribe from another Fediverse account, for example Lemmy or Mastodon. To do this, paste the following into the search field of your instance: !selfhosted@lemmy.world
A place to share alternatives to popular online services that can be self-hosted without giving up privacy or locking you into a service you don’t control.
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Don’t duplicate the full text of your blog or github here. Just post the link for folks to click.
Submission headline should match the article title (don’t cherry-pick information from the title to fit your agenda).
You absolutely want to remove the batteries. Otherwise they would die of old age pretty soon and then it creates danger of fire. Either a new battery for your ‘server’ every 5 years, or some tinkering solution, maybe supercapacitors.
Then you need an OS with long term support/maintenance. Not stock Android, because it evolves away from old hardware too fast. Maybe something like Lineage.
One problem remains: I have serious doubts about the network interface, if it can handle high throughput or many connections, like a webserver for several users, or even torrenting. A NAS for 1 person seems very possible, though.
deleted by creator
The future? No. A useful niche? Sure.
I run 4 mail servers, 2 game servers, 3 directory/auth servers, a firewall/router, a NAS, a security system server, a media server, a monitoring server, and a couple others. Android ain’t gonna cut it.
Acronyms, initialisms, abbreviations, contractions, and other phrases which expand to something larger, that I’ve seen in this thread:
6 acronyms in this thread; the most compressed thread commented on today has 5 acronyms.
[Thread #231 for this sub, first seen 22nd Oct 2023, 22:25] [FAQ] [Full list] [Contact] [Source code]
@selfhosted Update:
It does not need to be perfect, have massive throughput or allow for massive amounts of read/write cycles.
If people can host their own media server like Jellyfin or note taking apps like Joplin instead of using commercial services by simply installing an APK on an old phone they can leave connected at home, that’s already a big win.
Guess you missed this: https://lemmy.world/comment/4731273
Having virtualization doesn’t ensure future success. Not when the timeframe is something like more than 8 years.
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@leggylav @selfhosted OMG, yes, thank you <3
I finally feel understood now :vlpn_cry:
deleted by creator
Just use raspberry pis and Linux. You’ll have better support.
Then ditch the raspberry pi and get an sff PC that has an x86 processor in it.
Pass, I’ll take the cluster of raspberry pis for the same cost… For the purpose of self hosting my cluster is going to out perform your x86. Like why are you going to spend hundreds of dollars for an x86 that will do fine when you can spend $50 for a pi that will also do fine?
Then you can just cluster those pis and get redundancy
You’ve got it backwards, a small x86 box is more cost effective for better performance. With a raspberry pi you’re paying for the form factor (and often scarcity)
You’ve got it backwards. A small x86 is a hundreds, and a rpi is 50… Like come on… Cost for performance isn’t even a question…
Y’all… I thought you’d be better at tech than Reddit… this is sad
You can get a wyse thin client on eBay for $50, and if you’re clustering the pis it’s not $50 anymore, so you can get a real computer on woot in the $150 range.
Either of those options will run circles around a pi/pi cluster.
Please learn to read. Again. I thought I wasn’t on Reddit anymore.
$50 for a pi. Not for clustering. For one. That’s it.
An X86 PC is gonna cost you hundreds. That’s how I can cluster rpi, for the same cost. I hope you now know how to do basic math.
This isn’t even true. A Pi sells for 50$ yes, + USB cable for power + USB power adapter + case + whatever else money grab.
A second hand HP mini with an i5 7th gen CPU that is WAY faster comes with everything including 8 GB of RAM and 256GB of SSD (or better if you get a good deal) for around 80$. Tell me about your math again…
Insulting my reading ability and math skills would work better if you weren’t making a fool of yourself.
I gave you an example of a $50 x86 PC and mentioned the more expensive options because you brought up building a pi cluster in your first response to me, at which point you’re not talking about spending $50 anymore.
The main point is that either the thin client or the slightly more expensive computer will runs circles around your pi(s) for the same price.
holy shit I haven’t thought about that webside in over a decade. Do you have personal experience purchasing self hosting stuff from there?
I’ve bought a couple old SFF PCs and tablets from there for low powered workstation stuff.
For self hosting I end up with rack mount dell servers when the prices fall off a cliff; right now it’s the 13th gen stuff that’s super cheap.
@Wander @selfhosted this whole “We are walking about with entirely reasonable servers in our pockets for reasonable scales - why doesn’t it feel like that?” thing is in my brain quite a bit.
@benjohn @selfhosted 6-8 GB of RAM with powerful CPU and GPU that was designed to run games and can in some cases run small AI models is nothing to scoff at imho.
@Wander @selfhosted I have conversations with peers where they talk about “servers” and “computers” as if they figure them as quite distinct things.
@Wander @selfhosted Unlikely, the biggest issue android devices have is hardware support due to the ARM CPU architecture. It’s just not as useful as old x86 hardware, you’re stuck with old outdated and vulnerable firmware. My opinion is that one of the selling points of ARM hardware for device vendors is it’s relative impossibility to get open source driver support. You may see some use of Apple M1 and M2 simply because it’s a smaller FOSS support target, but android devices vary too much.
I mean, android is fine I guess, but it’s being pushed to be less and less able to be separated from Google. I think for a lot of people interested in self hosting, there’s a low amount of interest in it because of that.
@southsamurai Oh that’s definitely a huge concern, but not just for self-hosting but for privacy in general.
But still, if the average joe wants to self-host something using an old phone is probably the easiest way to get them to try self-hosted alternatives and drop corporate / commercial services.
Maybe not the ‘average average joe’ such as my parents, but anyone who is minimally curious enough to do stuff such as registering a domain, setting up a game server for friends and maybe has opened the CMD windows console once or twice in the past following a tutorial. That kind of demographic (IDK if it has a name) might be much more inclined to self-host if it was as easy as installing an APK and letting your phone one somewhere at home.
Overall as long as Android doesn’t become straight out malicious spyware itself, the benefit of dropping commercial alternatives might very well be a net positive. In a worst-case scenario, any tunnel / vpn configuration necessary to expose a service to the internet could also add an automated step to blackhole requests to google’s tracking servers.
@Wander @selfhosted I in fact already use android for syncthing.
@AMS @selfhosted yes, hopefully we’ll see an explosion in self-hostable alternatives that can be installed as easily as syncthing.
Upvoted, but I feel horrified by the notion. I’d much rather have a headless server
@MigratingtoLemmy use a hammer to break the screen, control via adb :vlpn_happy_blep:
Wait are you messaging from mastodon?? Is that why the emoji won’t render
@Omniraptor ah yes! Probably that’s why.
Actually the whole original post was sent via Mastodon.
I tend to write posts that I share to my Mastodon followers and then at the end I mention a Lemmy community if I believe the community would also find it interesting.
That is so cool I didn’t realize lemmy and mastodon were different views into the same database, assumed they were different services with no overlap except some underlying tech (I don’t know much about fediverse structure). But how does that work with like, character limits? Iirc lemmy can have much longer comments
@Omniraptor in theory Mastodon will show a “read more” button for longer comments. Top level posts sent from Lemmy often require clicking the link to view them in full and content isn’t ordered by votes because they don’t exist.
So, it’s a bit messy to read Lemmy from Mastodon, but posting something and then replying to comments on that thread is really easy.
@Omniraptor @Wander Probably user is limited during writing by own instance limit and longer posts of others could be displayed. I saw this between mastodon/misskey instances with various limits, probably it could be similar for lemmy/kbin federation. Currently I am writing this on small mastodon server with 20k limit (never used this fully yet…)
Who provides the software and firmware updates for my antique Samsung S4 and Galaxy young?
I hope you will give me some firmware for the old snapdragon.
Don’t forget the loads of Exynos CPUs and loads of GPUs from different vendors.
That’s the fun part. Nobody does.
I think there’s some truth to it. But I imagine it will be more AOSP than what android is with google services. AOSP is really a great operating system with very good security and built in features. And with neural engines and high bandwidth emmc, it is mostly just lacking a large amount of storage to make it all complete, but the latest SOCs are most probably powerful enough. Is there something like docker for android? :)
Edit: I do recognize what someone else said, which is that one big challenge would be software updates. We are not that limited by hardware when we consider servers, they can easily run for years with regular software updates.
I feel like Android is adding some new power saving “feature” with every version to kill all the useful stuff I want to keep running in the background.
Last stupid thing I remember was when it removed my CalDAV synchronisation because I haven’t been “using” the CalDAV app for some months.
Not to mention all the times it decides to kill something you want to use because it thinks the RAM would be more needed elsewhere. Honestly my 128 MB RAM Nokia N900 could run more apps at the same time than my 4 GB RAM Fairphone.
Yeah, android is a lot like Windows in that they make choices that might benefit users who don’t know what’s going on but interrupts or harms things power users are doing. They are just better at not being as annoying with it and don’t beg people to use their default programs.
You’re right, that’s a feature if you’re a regular phone user and a bug if you want it as a server.
Also, even if the application is still running you can have the os almost fully shutdown even if it’s charging. Again, it’s a behavior tuned for a typical user.
Thanks for the monthly reminder to open DavX5 🤣
I’ve already heard of people using Termux to host services on their old phones. Seems to work well.
Think about it, those phones might work right now but in 10 years their Android versions will not support anything, they wont even have root certificate updates breaking SSL, the kernel will be missing support for whatever people need and whatnot. Maybe the phones won’t even boot because some key will expire somewhere… let alone security vulnerabilities.
Most people get a new phone every 2-3 years. If people use their 2 most recent phones as simple servers, then these are not 10 year old devices.
Damn, what a fucking waste of resources.
I wish I could predict the future too.
Just look at the past, software and hardware as way simpler and way less locked down and it doesn’t work out. Just try to use a Windows XP to access the Internet and/or install modern software.
deleted by creator
All you have to do is look at the present… Android phones don’t have super long software support. Best you’re looking at is maybe 5 years. So, the user saying 10 years is well past that mark.
Looking at the present, I’m not aware of android devices not booting 10 years after they were released. In fact, my 2013 MotoX is still a perfectly usable phone for many purposes. I had to use it for a few weeks a couple years ago because my phone broke.
in 10 years? Is that a big deal? I’ve never had a single computer for 10 years.