That Lindsey Shepherd thing and Peterson’s tiff with WLU certainly had an effect on local people. His grandstanding that looks so ridiculous to us actually sells to authoritarian personalities.
Oh boy, this isn’t going to be a popular opinion. I’m a former therapist and I still work in healthcare. Part of why I left therapy is because I disagree with the prevalence of gender affirming care.
You’re allowed to disagree with me. I know it’s a contentious issue. But my experience is that our culture and institutions are using one label and one treatment as a panacea for a variety of issues where they are not appropriate. People with a variety of underlying mental health problems are being convinced into believing they have gender dysphoria, and they are funneled into that diagnosis and a type of treatment that is not as reversible as we pretend. Hormone therapy can be extremely detrimental to a developing body and mind, there are lots of studies out there to show this.
I think the core concepts behind the Trans acceptance movement are positive. I think people who can only find relief for their dysphoria through transitioning should be allowed to, and should be accepted and respected just as any other individual should be. As much as people hate Jordan Peterson, he has said these exact same things. I don’t see hatred in this stance. I see caution.
The anger you mistake for hatred is due to the concern of over-use of gender affirming care, not the existence of it. It absolutely should exist for those who don’t respond to other treatment methods. But I’ve seen a lot of patients come in assuming they are trans, desiring gender affirming care, when the reality is that you don’t have to be trans to hate yourself, hate your body, or feel an affinity for archetypes of the opposite gender. A lot of these people come in believing that transitioning will cure them of their disordered thoughts, but it is not a cure-all for all identity disorders or associated depression. Even if you do specifically have gender dysphoria, jumping to gender affirming care is radical. It’s not how we treat any other kind of disordered thinking, and largely stems from political interference into medicine rather than from science, in my opinion. There is no medical reason not to try more traditional forms of therapy and medications before pursuing the less understood and riskier treatments. We fast track this type of treatment now for ideological reasons regarding the sanctity of trans identity, not because it makes sense from the benefit/harm analysis used in every other aspect of medicine.
I very much wish the LGBT community could try to understand where moderates like myself are coming from. I have never treated a trans person with less respect than I would treat anyone else. I believe some people absolutely do not have any other viable options, and that transitioning can provide much needed relief for some. But I believe politics has overstepped into the realm of medicine in this case. At the very least, my hope is to protect children and teenagers from undergoing gender affirming care until it is absolutely clear and necessary that it is the only path of treatment. Not because trans people are evil, but because these treatments can do more harm than good if they aren’t absolutely necessary.
To clarify, you’re suggesting that you’re okay or at least sympathetic to people who suggest jailing your former colleagues because you think your colleagues should employ more diagnostic caution? You’re understanding of or even supportive of laws that outright ban gender affirming care because some professionals make professional errors? I’m not in the field, I’m not suggesting your experiences are invalid, but I would suggest you consider the downstream consequences of your sympathies. Gender affirming care may or may not be appropriate for any given case, but I absolutely believe that for some youth it can be life saving. Obstructions or bans can therefore cost lives.
I also find it interesting how vehemently Musk, Peterson, and others will come out against gender affirming care while remaining silent on issues like the overuse of prescription drugs as a means to treat youth struggles. We give kids mind altering drugs to treat their behavior, often without considering other treatment pathways, and usually without consent. This seems to be the same sort of issue, no? And yet Musk and Peterson are focused on the gender issue instead. Does that not suggest that those you are expressing sympathy for here are not also politically motivated rather than motivated by genuine concern for a child’s well-being?
Gender affirming therapy is a proven intervention to save lives. What people tell me about their experience of gender doesn’t match my own, and I think there is room for other paradigms of gender. But that doesn’t fucking matter in the face of saving people from suicide. Whatever alternative you want to suggest has to save lives. It doesn’t matter if it matches your personal gender theories or not. That’s irrelevant. Gender therapy exists to save lives.
Even if you do specifically have gender dysphoria, jumping to gender affirming care is radical. It’s not how we treat any other kind of disordered thinking
Gender Dysphoria is not disordered thinking. That’s exactly why the name was changed in DSM-5 (formerly Gender Identity Disorder in DSM-IV). Or if you prefer, it’s exactly why ICD-11 renamed it to Gender Incongruence and moved it out of the “Mental, Behavioural, and Neurodevelopmental Disorders” section. Shouldn’t a former therapist commenting on the issue know that?
Does Gender Dysphoria present alongside disordered thinking? Quite often! But that doesn’t invalidate one’s gender identity. Transition didn’t make my F33.2 Major Depressive Disorder, Recurrent Severe magically go away, but it sure is easier to cope with and treat these days. (Well, I guess it’s 6A71.3 now that ICD-11 is out.)
I think people who can only find relief for their dysphoria by transitioning should be allowed to
And there we have it: the core of the argument you’re making is that people should only be allowed to transition if a gatekeeper is satisfied it’s the only way they can get relief. And the only way to “show” that is to suffer more and more — unnecessarily! — until someone like you finally believes them, which might never happen. Do you believe trans people genuinely have the gender we say we do? If so, withholding treatment is simply cruel. Or do you not believe us and just think it’s okay for us to “pretend” if nothing else works? That’s not real acceptance.
There is no medical reason not to try more traditional forms of therapy and medications before pursuing the less understood and riskier treatments.
Scientists still don’t fully understand how antidepressant medications work. They come with a black-boxed warning (the strongest kind) in the US, and similarly strong warnings in the Canadian product monographs. Benzodiazepines commonly used for anxiety disorders can be extremely risky. Puberty blockers and hormone treatments are better understood and carry less risk in many cases.
I very much wish the LGBT community could try to understand where moderates like myself are coming from.
Oh, believe me, we understand exactly where you’re coming from… quite possibly better than you do. You’re only fooling yourself with that “moderate” label.
And that’s why I wrote this reply out for the bystanders — it’s not actually for you.
oh if you really want to jump down the rabbit hole, just read “your consent is not required”. everything you say, or even don’t say is considered “disordered thinking” if a psychiatrist decided it is. they are literally the chiropractors of the MD world, everything is based on opinion and drug company statements with SFA to back it up.
I’ve been watching sh.itjust.works implode in hand-wringing what-ifs over the prospect of having to defederate alt-right instances to keep from having their hate speech plastered all over the internet. This is an appropriate time to remember the actual human life costs of letting people think their anti-human garbage is widely accepted.
I moved my secondary account off there (@Quill7513@slrpnk.net, now, for transparency) because I did not feel an 8 day time gap between the community at large saying it was time to defederate from the Nazi instance to admins saying it was time to contemplate defederatonf from the Nazi instance was a short enough time frame. One of their moderator / admins seems to think that’s a very fast turnaround but I just don’t agree. If they needed to define a process first, that time was 8 days ago, when the community asked for the process to start
They’re up to two weeks now. I mean it’s taking three or more days just to debate removing it and hold an - almost unanimous - vote. They’re sending a very clear message that they’re much more worried about showing due process towards violent fascists than looking out for the people those violent fascists would target. This whole delay after delay appears to be for the benefit of about twelve if their users, so it must mainly be for the admins themselves
I also have pretty much abandoned my account there
Musk over here trying to conflate gender-affirming hormone medication being taken by 16-17 year olds with the mutilation of children’s genitalia.
This is thinly veiled hate speech. They are straw-manning those they see as “other”, for the purpose of placing themselves in a morally superior position. It is arguably defensible lies (I didn’t mean, I just meant…), functioning as a dogwhistle to manufacture outrage over imagined extremes that aren’t actually happening, all to stir hatred in the public against LGBTQ+ people and ideologies. And they cap it off with a call to action.
This is painfully similar to how hate speech against the Jewish people started.
I know this will be an unpopular opinion in this thread but this isn’t hate speech in Canada. It’s a vile perspective shared by someone with many impressionable followers but it’s not hate speech. Labeling this exchange as hate speech weakens this term and is not useful in shifting discourse or people’s opinions.
When you use the phrase, “hate speech in Canada,” it is clear you are using the specific legal standard for criminal speech in Canada. That is not the only definition of hate speech. More generally, anything intended to express or incite hatred is hate speech, it need not be legally found to be a crime.
Nearly any discourse can be considered hate speech using your broad definition. And when everything is hate speech nothing is hate speech, it loses it’s usefulness as a term. Let’s use accurate language
Let’s deal with that problem if it comes up. And it never fucking has. But meanwhile we have had the converse problem an AWFUL lot of times.
If you cannot recognize and boldly denounce hate, that’s a you problem, and you need to deal with it. If you cannot recognize these specific tweets as expression of hate, then just fuck off and leave the rest of us alone.
Like seriously, you’re more concerned with some abstract “purity of the language” issue than opposing actual hate that is actually hurting people you probably know by simplycalling it hate.
Don’t straw man and then get aggressive about opinions I obviously don’t hold. Feel free to ask questions if something is unclear. These kinds of disingenuous discources are part of the problem.
Genetic evolution stopped when civilization started and we were no longer small tribes killing each other for survival. Our brains work on that level.
Fascism is basically just a modern iteration of feudalism. Our instincts make it feel right to have traditional hierarchies based off of ancestry and we should kill the other tribes to make our tribe stronger. Of course those instincts are destructive to civilization, but because of civilization we’re always going to have them.
The KW subreddits have a terrifying amount of hate. When they think that they can get away with expressing hatred for the homeless, it gets so ugly so fast. You can get away with saying a lot of disgusting things about poor and homeless people, if you’re just a little bit careful about it, and a lot of “reasonable people” will tolerate it or not even notice.
A lot of the same people start chirping every time gender comes up in one of those subreddits, except they know they have to be about ten times more careful with their slime. A dozen obtuse microaggressions from a dozen different accounts. Someone always gets too emboldened by it or is too stupid to play the game and says something that crosses the line. They’re always testing and pushing to see how much hatred other people will tolerate.
There are hundreds of people in the local subs that are getting something out of openly hating people. It feels like decades of hard won battles slipping away month by month. No wonder they’ve been bitching about “political correctness” all this time, they thought that having respect for each other was bullshit this whole time and everyone was just pretending to care about not hurting each other.
When they think that they can get away with expressing hatred for the homeless, it gets so ugly so fast. You can get away with saying a lot of disgusting things about poor and homeless people, if you’re just a little bit careful about it, and a lot of “reasonable people” will tolerate it or not even notice.
A homeless person was shot and murdered in British Columbia and while generally sentiment was respectful and mourning the deceased, I definitely noticed almost a general understanding and even acceptance of the motivations for the killer, almost as if to pardon them and insinuate the homeless “have it coming”. Really made me disgusted at the lack of empathy some people have for those less fortunate than them.
It really feels like they don’t care who the target is. Any group that is socially designated as inferior will do. It’s the actual act of hatred that they are getting something out of. Their victims are totally incidental, it’s just whomever is vulnerable and stigmatized enough that no one will come to their aid. And right now it seems like they have so much they can’t keep it in anymore.
I saw similar sentiments expressed by some people “they shouldn’t have killed him, but…” and it made me want to scream. Are we so surprised dehumanizing people ends up some of them dying? Those people were part of the problem and didn’t even know it.
You are not logged in. However you can subscribe from another Fediverse account, for example Lemmy or Mastodon. To do this, paste the following into the search field of your instance: !canada@lemmy.ca
That Lindsey Shepherd thing and Peterson’s tiff with WLU certainly had an effect on local people. His grandstanding that looks so ridiculous to us actually sells to authoritarian personalities.
Oh boy, this isn’t going to be a popular opinion. I’m a former therapist and I still work in healthcare. Part of why I left therapy is because I disagree with the prevalence of gender affirming care.
You’re allowed to disagree with me. I know it’s a contentious issue. But my experience is that our culture and institutions are using one label and one treatment as a panacea for a variety of issues where they are not appropriate. People with a variety of underlying mental health problems are being convinced into believing they have gender dysphoria, and they are funneled into that diagnosis and a type of treatment that is not as reversible as we pretend. Hormone therapy can be extremely detrimental to a developing body and mind, there are lots of studies out there to show this.
I think the core concepts behind the Trans acceptance movement are positive. I think people who can only find relief for their dysphoria through transitioning should be allowed to, and should be accepted and respected just as any other individual should be. As much as people hate Jordan Peterson, he has said these exact same things. I don’t see hatred in this stance. I see caution.
The anger you mistake for hatred is due to the concern of over-use of gender affirming care, not the existence of it. It absolutely should exist for those who don’t respond to other treatment methods. But I’ve seen a lot of patients come in assuming they are trans, desiring gender affirming care, when the reality is that you don’t have to be trans to hate yourself, hate your body, or feel an affinity for archetypes of the opposite gender. A lot of these people come in believing that transitioning will cure them of their disordered thoughts, but it is not a cure-all for all identity disorders or associated depression. Even if you do specifically have gender dysphoria, jumping to gender affirming care is radical. It’s not how we treat any other kind of disordered thinking, and largely stems from political interference into medicine rather than from science, in my opinion. There is no medical reason not to try more traditional forms of therapy and medications before pursuing the less understood and riskier treatments. We fast track this type of treatment now for ideological reasons regarding the sanctity of trans identity, not because it makes sense from the benefit/harm analysis used in every other aspect of medicine.
I very much wish the LGBT community could try to understand where moderates like myself are coming from. I have never treated a trans person with less respect than I would treat anyone else. I believe some people absolutely do not have any other viable options, and that transitioning can provide much needed relief for some. But I believe politics has overstepped into the realm of medicine in this case. At the very least, my hope is to protect children and teenagers from undergoing gender affirming care until it is absolutely clear and necessary that it is the only path of treatment. Not because trans people are evil, but because these treatments can do more harm than good if they aren’t absolutely necessary.
To clarify, you’re suggesting that you’re okay or at least sympathetic to people who suggest jailing your former colleagues because you think your colleagues should employ more diagnostic caution? You’re understanding of or even supportive of laws that outright ban gender affirming care because some professionals make professional errors? I’m not in the field, I’m not suggesting your experiences are invalid, but I would suggest you consider the downstream consequences of your sympathies. Gender affirming care may or may not be appropriate for any given case, but I absolutely believe that for some youth it can be life saving. Obstructions or bans can therefore cost lives.
I also find it interesting how vehemently Musk, Peterson, and others will come out against gender affirming care while remaining silent on issues like the overuse of prescription drugs as a means to treat youth struggles. We give kids mind altering drugs to treat their behavior, often without considering other treatment pathways, and usually without consent. This seems to be the same sort of issue, no? And yet Musk and Peterson are focused on the gender issue instead. Does that not suggest that those you are expressing sympathy for here are not also politically motivated rather than motivated by genuine concern for a child’s well-being?
deleted by creator
Gender affirming therapy is a proven intervention to save lives. What people tell me about their experience of gender doesn’t match my own, and I think there is room for other paradigms of gender. But that doesn’t fucking matter in the face of saving people from suicide. Whatever alternative you want to suggest has to save lives. It doesn’t matter if it matches your personal gender theories or not. That’s irrelevant. Gender therapy exists to save lives.
Gender Dysphoria is not disordered thinking. That’s exactly why the name was changed in DSM-5 (formerly Gender Identity Disorder in DSM-IV). Or if you prefer, it’s exactly why ICD-11 renamed it to Gender Incongruence and moved it out of the “Mental, Behavioural, and Neurodevelopmental Disorders” section. Shouldn’t a former therapist commenting on the issue know that?
Does Gender Dysphoria present alongside disordered thinking? Quite often! But that doesn’t invalidate one’s gender identity. Transition didn’t make my F33.2 Major Depressive Disorder, Recurrent Severe magically go away, but it sure is easier to cope with and treat these days. (Well, I guess it’s 6A71.3 now that ICD-11 is out.)
And there we have it: the core of the argument you’re making is that people should only be allowed to transition if a gatekeeper is satisfied it’s the only way they can get relief. And the only way to “show” that is to suffer more and more — unnecessarily! — until someone like you finally believes them, which might never happen. Do you believe trans people genuinely have the gender we say we do? If so, withholding treatment is simply cruel. Or do you not believe us and just think it’s okay for us to “pretend” if nothing else works? That’s not real acceptance.
Scientists still don’t fully understand how antidepressant medications work. They come with a black-boxed warning (the strongest kind) in the US, and similarly strong warnings in the Canadian product monographs. Benzodiazepines commonly used for anxiety disorders can be extremely risky. Puberty blockers and hormone treatments are better understood and carry less risk in many cases.
Oh, believe me, we understand exactly where you’re coming from… quite possibly better than you do. You’re only fooling yourself with that “moderate” label.
And that’s why I wrote this reply out for the bystanders — it’s not actually for you.
oh if you really want to jump down the rabbit hole, just read “your consent is not required”. everything you say, or even don’t say is considered “disordered thinking” if a psychiatrist decided it is. they are literally the chiropractors of the MD world, everything is based on opinion and drug company statements with SFA to back it up.
I understand what you’re saying but I don’t agree.
The tweets from Peterson and Musk aren’t nuanced arguments that gender affirming care should be one of many options.
It’s hate speech that says lock up the doctors. It motivates haters like this lunatic.
Musk and Peterson are stochastic terrorists.
This cannot be said loudly or strongly enough.
I’ve been watching sh.itjust.works implode in hand-wringing what-ifs over the prospect of having to defederate alt-right instances to keep from having their hate speech plastered all over the internet. This is an appropriate time to remember the actual human life costs of letting people think their anti-human garbage is widely accepted.
I moved my secondary account off there (@Quill7513@slrpnk.net, now, for transparency) because I did not feel an 8 day time gap between the community at large saying it was time to defederate from the Nazi instance to admins saying it was time to contemplate defederatonf from the Nazi instance was a short enough time frame. One of their moderator / admins seems to think that’s a very fast turnaround but I just don’t agree. If they needed to define a process first, that time was 8 days ago, when the community asked for the process to start
They’re up to two weeks now. I mean it’s taking three or more days just to debate removing it and hold an - almost unanimous - vote. They’re sending a very clear message that they’re much more worried about showing due process towards violent fascists than looking out for the people those violent fascists would target. This whole delay after delay appears to be for the benefit of about twelve if their users, so it must mainly be for the admins themselves
I also have pretty much abandoned my account there
I strongly disagree with the sentiments of these tweets but why would they be considered hate speech? What an I missing?
Musk over here trying to conflate gender-affirming hormone medication being taken by 16-17 year olds with the mutilation of children’s genitalia.
This is thinly veiled hate speech. They are straw-manning those they see as “other”, for the purpose of placing themselves in a morally superior position. It is arguably defensible lies (I didn’t mean, I just meant…), functioning as a dogwhistle to manufacture outrage over imagined extremes that aren’t actually happening, all to stir hatred in the public against LGBTQ+ people and ideologies. And they cap it off with a call to action.
This is painfully similar to how hate speech against the Jewish people started.
I know this will be an unpopular opinion in this thread but this isn’t hate speech in Canada. It’s a vile perspective shared by someone with many impressionable followers but it’s not hate speech. Labeling this exchange as hate speech weakens this term and is not useful in shifting discourse or people’s opinions.
When you use the phrase, “hate speech in Canada,” it is clear you are using the specific legal standard for criminal speech in Canada. That is not the only definition of hate speech. More generally, anything intended to express or incite hatred is hate speech, it need not be legally found to be a crime.
Nearly any discourse can be considered hate speech using your broad definition. And when everything is hate speech nothing is hate speech, it loses it’s usefulness as a term. Let’s use accurate language
Let’s deal with that problem if it comes up. And it never fucking has. But meanwhile we have had the converse problem an AWFUL lot of times.
If you cannot recognize and boldly denounce hate, that’s a you problem, and you need to deal with it. If you cannot recognize these specific tweets as expression of hate, then just fuck off and leave the rest of us alone.
Like seriously, you’re more concerned with some abstract “purity of the language” issue than opposing actual hate that is actually hurting people you probably know by simplycalling it hate.
Don’t straw man and then get aggressive about opinions I obviously don’t hold. Feel free to ask questions if something is unclear. These kinds of disingenuous discources are part of the problem.
Straw man, my ass. You refuse to call hate hate.
“The Cultural Marxists are promoting deviant behaviour to weaken Western Civilization.”
“The Jews are promoting deviant behaviour to weaken the Aryan Race.”
Yeah these guys are saying the same things now as were being said a hundred years ago. And lately a lot of people are dropping the code words.
We know what this kind of thing led to in the past.
So yeah, it’s very painfully similar.
We all have basically the same brains we did 100 years ago.
Genetic evolution stopped when civilization started and we were no longer small tribes killing each other for survival. Our brains work on that level.
Fascism is basically just a modern iteration of feudalism. Our instincts make it feel right to have traditional hierarchies based off of ancestry and we should kill the other tribes to make our tribe stronger. Of course those instincts are destructive to civilization, but because of civilization we’re always going to have them.
IANAL but under Canadian law it probably isn’t, since people who undertake an activity were the target as opposed to a fixed, identifiable group.
You’d have to go with a different but related Jordan Peterson quote for that. There’s many to choose from.
I was super confused thinking those tweets were in response to this news story.
The KW subreddits have a terrifying amount of hate. When they think that they can get away with expressing hatred for the homeless, it gets so ugly so fast. You can get away with saying a lot of disgusting things about poor and homeless people, if you’re just a little bit careful about it, and a lot of “reasonable people” will tolerate it or not even notice.
A lot of the same people start chirping every time gender comes up in one of those subreddits, except they know they have to be about ten times more careful with their slime. A dozen obtuse microaggressions from a dozen different accounts. Someone always gets too emboldened by it or is too stupid to play the game and says something that crosses the line. They’re always testing and pushing to see how much hatred other people will tolerate.
There are hundreds of people in the local subs that are getting something out of openly hating people. It feels like decades of hard won battles slipping away month by month. No wonder they’ve been bitching about “political correctness” all this time, they thought that having respect for each other was bullshit this whole time and everyone was just pretending to care about not hurting each other.
A homeless person was shot and murdered in British Columbia and while generally sentiment was respectful and mourning the deceased, I definitely noticed almost a general understanding and even acceptance of the motivations for the killer, almost as if to pardon them and insinuate the homeless “have it coming”. Really made me disgusted at the lack of empathy some people have for those less fortunate than them.
It really feels like they don’t care who the target is. Any group that is socially designated as inferior will do. It’s the actual act of hatred that they are getting something out of. Their victims are totally incidental, it’s just whomever is vulnerable and stigmatized enough that no one will come to their aid. And right now it seems like they have so much they can’t keep it in anymore.
Oh and what about that person in Toronto killed by a group of girls. Wasn’t he homeless too?
He was, yes.
I saw similar sentiments expressed by some people “they shouldn’t have killed him, but…” and it made me want to scream. Are we so surprised dehumanizing people ends up some of them dying? Those people were part of the problem and didn’t even know it.
That’s their goal. When they say it isn’t don’t believe them
Long before Peterson went into his Russian meat coma, he abandoned his patients and left them with a message to harass his detractors.
Maybe you’re not one to talk Jordan.