It is good they are taking public steps to change their corporate culture, but it is clear they had a top down culture of not taking harassment seriously. Hate to share a reddit link, but this video: https://www.reddit.com/r/LinusTechTips/comments/15t1mzn/mandatory_meeting_the_after_madisons_departure/ purports to be from when Madison left. The language here is not the language of a corporate culture that takes harassment seriously. Especially since James didn’t get immediately corrected.
If they want to win back the viewers (and likely sponsors) they are losing or have lost because of all of this toxicity, they are going to have to continue to publicly show they are committed to improving not only their culture to move away from a harassment friendly, grindset focused content farm, to one worth our time (and sponsor dollars).
I guess I’m kinda naive. “You gonna dance on that table, or just stand on it?” doesn’t sound like a sex joke to me, but that’s what people are calling it.
If I Google “table dancing” (in a fresh new browser I just installed on incognito mode with a VPN and everything + I never watch porn or search this stuff or anything, so it’s not just customizing it to be sexual for me - I encourage you to try this yourself) the first result in the Wikipedia article about it, which reads:
A table dance, or bartop dance, is a dance performed at (or on) a table or bar, as opposed to on a stage. It may be an erotic dance performed by a sex worker or it may be done as a leisure activity.
As you keep scrolling down, the next thing it shows is images of erotic dancers table dancing, the next thing is a list of nearby strip clubs, the next result is the dictionary.com entry for table dancing which reads:
a form of entertainment in which naked or scantily dressed women dance erotically at the tables of individual members of the audience, who must remain seated
The next result is videos of erotic dancers table dancing. And so on, and so on.
So, yeah, there’s definitely, without a doubt, a strong sexual/erotic connotation/connection to the term and the joke they made.
I think the problem is in referencing a specific phrase, “table dancing” and not just the idea of “dancing on a table” which is more common and wouldn’t be in the dictionary as a term.
If someone says anything about dancing on a table or bar, the first thing I think of is PeeWee Herman dancing to Tequila by the Champs, perhaps betraying my age a bit, followed by the music video for Hypnodance by Little Big. Other than that, it’s just a random smattering of movies and TV shows (and a drunk wedding attendee or two) hopping on a table, shouting something to the effect of, “Let’s party!” and then dancing very poorly.
Sure, erotic/sexual versions exist (like everything, as dictated by rule 34, of course), but that’s not likely the norm that most people encounter.
It’s perfectly reasonable to make a dancing joke when on a table that has nothing to do with being sexual or erotic.
Maybe it’s being in corporate america for a while, but holy shit that made my head literally swivel back to the video after kinda paying attention. That is definitely not something you say in corporate america, let alone literally listening to a speech about harassment.
You never even get close to anything sexual in corporate america. Just steer clear. I don’t care if it’s funny, or you think it’s funny, or if you think everyone else will think it’s funny, you don’t. You avoid the topic completely. Make the joke later at home or with your friends but not in the workplace.
Even if the joke is only partially offensive, it’s offensive. (If you aren’t sure if it is or not - you don’t make the joke. You’re instincts are trying to tell you it’s not the right place) You don’t do that in the office, and to do that seconds after the meeting it shows how fucking terrible it is there. I’ll be honest, I was taking Madison’s allegations with a grain of salt, but that just solidified to me what the culture is like. If they don’t have HR nipping that shit in the bud, what else are they letting fly
Yeah, we tested our PA system at an exhibition in Atlanta with some songs and a colleague put in a song about anal sex. We were nearly kicked out of the whole thing, although pretty much no one of the workers was there anymore and it wasn’t even open to the public yet.
So yeah, cooperate America really seems to be more than just prude
I agree. I was caught off guard because it didn’t show up on my radar at all. It’s not like I thought “eh, it’s only a little bit racy”. I just missed the sex implications completely.
for sure, and yeah you probably wouldn’t make that joke then, but the person who did clearly knew what they were saying and still decided to. Freaking read the room man. (them, not you)
I just can’t help but think that if I had made that sort of comment in that sort of meeting, every boss or office I’ve worked for would have immediately taken corrective action, either publicly calling me into a separate meeting or by advising how such comments aren’t acceptable and noting how it violates policy.
The fact that it was just ignored is so much more indicative of the culture than I think just about anything else in the video.
Exactly, he should have called it out, right there. Yeah embarrassing for the person, but they should be embarrassed.
That, right there actually is what we’re stopping. That sort of joke was okay in the past, even up to this meeting, but no longer going forward. That’s the last one, and this is this entire group’s one and only warning
Yeah, I think the connection between being on a raised platform and dancing is stripping. Making this a horribly tone deaf, if not intentionally undermining, joke.
… I took a second to consult ChatGPT…
Other connections seem to be all related to a performance of some type. I very much doubt this joke was not about stripping.
That’s actually kind of fucking disgusting behavior. Like I’ve said elsewhere, they make stupid throwaway sexual jokes in so many videos, it’s easy to imagine it’s just the tip of the iceberg.
If I Google “table dancing” (in a fresh new browser I just installed on incognito mode with a VPN and everything + I never watch porn or search this stuff or anything, so it’s not just customizing it to be sexual for me - I encourage you to try this yourself) the first result in the Wikipedia article about it, which reads:
A table dance, or bartop dance, is a dance performed at (or on) a table or bar, as opposed to on a stage. It may be an erotic dance performed by a sex worker or it may be done as a leisure activity.
As you keep scrolling down, the next thing it shows is images of erotic dancers table dancing, the next thing is a list of nearby strip clubs, the next result is the dictionary.com entry for table dancing which reads:
a form of entertainment in which naked or scantily dressed women dance erotically at the tables of individual members of the audience, who must remain seated
The next result is videos of erotic dancers table dancing. And so on, and so on.
So, yeah, there’s definitely, without a doubt, a strong sexual/erotic connotation/connection to the term and the joke they made.
I think its more the implication that Linus looked like stripper on the table. But I appreciate that could be a stretch. I’m more concerned by a) instructing people to go directly to the person harassing them with no managerial oversight first, b) implying harassment complaints are drama, c) suggesting that its not their job to resolve harassment complaints by down playing them as “interpersonal problems” and d) intentionally or unintentionally suggesting that if you have a problem you are going against the fun environment, which instantly puts a harassment victim in an us vs them environment.
I’m coming at this from a lawyer perspective, as I am a lawyer (albeit not an employment or harassment lawyer) and I’ve witnessed first hand how harassment and discriminated employees are not respected by management. I’ve seen how that impacts people’s mental health and how, especially for younger women, it creates a toxic cycle where it can be extremely difficult to leave because you’ve internalized the harassing and discriminatory experience to the point of thinking “well, who else will hire me? I can’t just get another job.”
I realize if you have not experienced that or witnessed that, its hard to understand how a toxic environment can lead to that mindset. So hearing someone joking around in an emergency all company meeting may not immediately seem problematic. But when the subject of the meeting is harassment, and a high ranking manager just jokes around like its not a big deal, and that joke is tacitly approved of by the executive level (where there isn’t immediate correction), it all strikes me as a corporate culture that doesn’t respect the seriousness of harassment.
I’m also biased as my office literally just had our annual harassment training yesterday.
Right?! Have you talked to them first? “Hey, harasser, you know you keep grabbing my ass and I don’t like that, could you not?” Literally every harasser will laugh in your face and say something like “You love it” to trivialize it. Any HR person knows that that’s now how that works.
Did you catch “Our 3rd party HR provider”? So they outsourced HR. How am I not even a tiny bit surprised?
They did say, if you aren’t comfortable talking to the person then go to management or fill in the anonymous form. Seems fine. Most inteepersonal stuff can be resolved by people just talking to each other, but if it is known the other party is an ass, just go to management. And HR is often outsourced at smaller corps, sames as payroll or IT can be.
“but the first question will be did you talk to them”. Definitely pushing that we’re going to encourage you to solve your own problems with your harasser
Sure, but often harassment starts out with a bully testing the waters and you can shut that down immediatly, and state your boundary. Then report if they break it. Not only is taking care of shit empowering, but if you have ever worked at a place with lots of catty people management can spend their whole day on petty bullshit instead of actual work.
Also you can do both at once. I had that situation with this monster of a guy being verbal abusive to everyone. one day I lost it and told him ti eff right off and cut the stupid bullshit, then I walked right to my supervisor and said I just told the plant guy to eff off so you might get an earfull. He actually did come to talk to my boss, boss was like I think you heard him right.
That guy was super amicable from that day on, he just needed to be put in his place.
I’m glad that worked for you, but that doesn’t mean it works for everyone, and it shouldn’t have to. Anyone should feel safe going and asking for help to stop someone they feel uncomfortable around.
Did you catch “Our 3rd party HR provider”? So they outsourced HR. How am I not even a tiny bit surprised?
Why is that an issue? Would you rather they investigate themselves and find no wrongdoing?
It’s not uncommon for HR to be an outside entity, to maintain a semblance of neutrality. Otherwise, it’s much much easier for internal HR teams to sweep things under the rug.
Oh I’m all for 3rd party oversight, but what it sounds like is this is one of those outsourced HR teams from overseas that are more or less paperwork pushers. They’re commonly used to avoid having to pay for actual HR that, you know, actually does human relations. These are separate from 3rd party oversights, which usually are separate from a full HR team.
They usually provide super super duper helpful 1-800 numbers where you, as an employee, can call and complain about something, feel better, gets logged in a report, and nothing then is done. I did work for consulting companies that used these and shockingly, they are terrible.
Because this was a meeting about generalized HR policies. If you have an issue with somebody usually the most corrective action is to talk to them. It can be a work issue, it can be a hygiene issue it can be just an annoyance issue, not everything has to be out and out battle in sexual harassment. Now if it is sexual harassment and you don’t feel comfortable escalating they did outline other pathways. But since this is generalized guidance they’re providing multiple avenues from the most effective and least laborious, to the most laborious and least effective.
I got a talk with HR once because someone thought at some meeting I kept staring at her boobs. My literal answer was “er… what?”, because I didn’t even realize they were at that meeting, much less sitting right opposite me. I do however have a tendency of getting lost in thought and letting my eyes wander or fixate on some random thing, might be a plant, a chair, a random fixture, whatever… guess it could’ve been some boobs. 🙈🤷
If they had confronted me right after the meeting, I’d just apologize… but no, HR it was, and…
Any HR person knows that that’s now how that works.
Since then, I make a point of carrying a pen and looking at that… just to avoid someone who I might not even notice is there, accusing me of sexually harassing them 🙄
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It is good they are taking public steps to change their corporate culture, but it is clear they had a top down culture of not taking harassment seriously. Hate to share a reddit link, but this video: https://www.reddit.com/r/LinusTechTips/comments/15t1mzn/mandatory_meeting_the_after_madisons_departure/ purports to be from when Madison left. The language here is not the language of a corporate culture that takes harassment seriously. Especially since James didn’t get immediately corrected.
If they want to win back the viewers (and likely sponsors) they are losing or have lost because of all of this toxicity, they are going to have to continue to publicly show they are committed to improving not only their culture to move away from a harassment friendly, grindset focused content farm, to one worth our time (and sponsor dollars).
I guess I’m kinda naive. “You gonna dance on that table, or just stand on it?” doesn’t sound like a sex joke to me, but that’s what people are calling it.
If I Google “table dancing” (in a fresh new browser I just installed on incognito mode with a VPN and everything + I never watch porn or search this stuff or anything, so it’s not just customizing it to be sexual for me - I encourage you to try this yourself) the first result in the Wikipedia article about it, which reads:
As you keep scrolling down, the next thing it shows is images of erotic dancers table dancing, the next thing is a list of nearby strip clubs, the next result is the dictionary.com entry for table dancing which reads:
The next result is videos of erotic dancers table dancing. And so on, and so on.
So, yeah, there’s definitely, without a doubt, a strong sexual/erotic connotation/connection to the term and the joke they made.
I think the problem is in referencing a specific phrase, “table dancing” and not just the idea of “dancing on a table” which is more common and wouldn’t be in the dictionary as a term.
If someone says anything about dancing on a table or bar, the first thing I think of is PeeWee Herman dancing to Tequila by the Champs, perhaps betraying my age a bit, followed by the music video for Hypnodance by Little Big. Other than that, it’s just a random smattering of movies and TV shows (and a drunk wedding attendee or two) hopping on a table, shouting something to the effect of, “Let’s party!” and then dancing very poorly.
Sure, erotic/sexual versions exist (like everything, as dictated by rule 34, of course), but that’s not likely the norm that most people encounter.
It’s perfectly reasonable to make a dancing joke when on a table that has nothing to do with being sexual or erotic.
Maybe it’s being in corporate america for a while, but holy shit that made my head literally swivel back to the video after kinda paying attention. That is definitely not something you say in corporate america, let alone literally listening to a speech about harassment.
You never even get close to anything sexual in corporate america. Just steer clear. I don’t care if it’s funny, or you think it’s funny, or if you think everyone else will think it’s funny, you don’t. You avoid the topic completely. Make the joke later at home or with your friends but not in the workplace.
Even if the joke is only partially offensive, it’s offensive. (If you aren’t sure if it is or not - you don’t make the joke. You’re instincts are trying to tell you it’s not the right place) You don’t do that in the office, and to do that seconds after the meeting it shows how fucking terrible it is there. I’ll be honest, I was taking Madison’s allegations with a grain of salt, but that just solidified to me what the culture is like. If they don’t have HR nipping that shit in the bud, what else are they letting fly
Yeah, we tested our PA system at an exhibition in Atlanta with some songs and a colleague put in a song about anal sex. We were nearly kicked out of the whole thing, although pretty much no one of the workers was there anymore and it wasn’t even open to the public yet.
So yeah, cooperate America really seems to be more than just prude
I wouldn’t say prude by any means, people aren’t afraid of sex. More they don’t want even the hint of a possibility of getting sued.
I agree. I was caught off guard because it didn’t show up on my radar at all. It’s not like I thought “eh, it’s only a little bit racy”. I just missed the sex implications completely.
for sure, and yeah you probably wouldn’t make that joke then, but the person who did clearly knew what they were saying and still decided to. Freaking read the room man. (them, not you)
I just can’t help but think that if I had made that sort of comment in that sort of meeting, every boss or office I’ve worked for would have immediately taken corrective action, either publicly calling me into a separate meeting or by advising how such comments aren’t acceptable and noting how it violates policy.
The fact that it was just ignored is so much more indicative of the culture than I think just about anything else in the video.
Exactly, he should have called it out, right there. Yeah embarrassing for the person, but they should be embarrassed.
Yeah, I think the connection between being on a raised platform and dancing is stripping. Making this a horribly tone deaf, if not intentionally undermining, joke.
… I took a second to consult ChatGPT…
Other connections seem to be all related to a performance of some type. I very much doubt this joke was not about stripping.
That’s actually kind of fucking disgusting behavior. Like I’ve said elsewhere, they make stupid throwaway sexual jokes in so many videos, it’s easy to imagine it’s just the tip of the iceberg.
deleted by creator
Me too I guess. I can see it if I really try, but it seems a stretch.
I’m gonna copy and paste a comment here that I made in reply to the person you replied to:
If I Google “table dancing” (in a fresh new browser I just installed on incognito mode with a VPN and everything + I never watch porn or search this stuff or anything, so it’s not just customizing it to be sexual for me - I encourage you to try this yourself) the first result in the Wikipedia article about it, which reads:
As you keep scrolling down, the next thing it shows is images of erotic dancers table dancing, the next thing is a list of nearby strip clubs, the next result is the dictionary.com entry for table dancing which reads:
The next result is videos of erotic dancers table dancing. And so on, and so on.
So, yeah, there’s definitely, without a doubt, a strong sexual/erotic connotation/connection to the term and the joke they made.
Sounds like an American Psycho reference. Don’t just stare at it, eat it!
I think its more the implication that Linus looked like stripper on the table. But I appreciate that could be a stretch. I’m more concerned by a) instructing people to go directly to the person harassing them with no managerial oversight first, b) implying harassment complaints are drama, c) suggesting that its not their job to resolve harassment complaints by down playing them as “interpersonal problems” and d) intentionally or unintentionally suggesting that if you have a problem you are going against the fun environment, which instantly puts a harassment victim in an us vs them environment.
I’m coming at this from a lawyer perspective, as I am a lawyer (albeit not an employment or harassment lawyer) and I’ve witnessed first hand how harassment and discriminated employees are not respected by management. I’ve seen how that impacts people’s mental health and how, especially for younger women, it creates a toxic cycle where it can be extremely difficult to leave because you’ve internalized the harassing and discriminatory experience to the point of thinking “well, who else will hire me? I can’t just get another job.”
I realize if you have not experienced that or witnessed that, its hard to understand how a toxic environment can lead to that mindset. So hearing someone joking around in an emergency all company meeting may not immediately seem problematic. But when the subject of the meeting is harassment, and a high ranking manager just jokes around like its not a big deal, and that joke is tacitly approved of by the executive level (where there isn’t immediate correction), it all strikes me as a corporate culture that doesn’t respect the seriousness of harassment.
I’m also biased as my office literally just had our annual harassment training yesterday.
Right?! Have you talked to them first? “Hey, harasser, you know you keep grabbing my ass and I don’t like that, could you not?” Literally every harasser will laugh in your face and say something like “You love it” to trivialize it. Any HR person knows that that’s now how that works.
Did you catch “Our 3rd party HR provider”? So they outsourced HR. How am I not even a tiny bit surprised?
They did say, if you aren’t comfortable talking to the person then go to management or fill in the anonymous form. Seems fine. Most inteepersonal stuff can be resolved by people just talking to each other, but if it is known the other party is an ass, just go to management. And HR is often outsourced at smaller corps, sames as payroll or IT can be.
“but the first question will be did you talk to them”. Definitely pushing that we’re going to encourage you to solve your own problems with your harasser
Sure, but often harassment starts out with a bully testing the waters and you can shut that down immediatly, and state your boundary. Then report if they break it. Not only is taking care of shit empowering, but if you have ever worked at a place with lots of catty people management can spend their whole day on petty bullshit instead of actual work. Also you can do both at once. I had that situation with this monster of a guy being verbal abusive to everyone. one day I lost it and told him ti eff right off and cut the stupid bullshit, then I walked right to my supervisor and said I just told the plant guy to eff off so you might get an earfull. He actually did come to talk to my boss, boss was like I think you heard him right. That guy was super amicable from that day on, he just needed to be put in his place.
I’m glad that worked for you, but that doesn’t mean it works for everyone, and it shouldn’t have to. Anyone should feel safe going and asking for help to stop someone they feel uncomfortable around.
Why is that an issue? Would you rather they investigate themselves and find no wrongdoing?
It’s not uncommon for HR to be an outside entity, to maintain a semblance of neutrality. Otherwise, it’s much much easier for internal HR teams to sweep things under the rug.
Oh I’m all for 3rd party oversight, but what it sounds like is this is one of those outsourced HR teams from overseas that are more or less paperwork pushers. They’re commonly used to avoid having to pay for actual HR that, you know, actually does human relations. These are separate from 3rd party oversights, which usually are separate from a full HR team.
They usually provide super super duper helpful 1-800 numbers where you, as an employee, can call and complain about something, feel better, gets logged in a report, and nothing then is done. I did work for consulting companies that used these and shockingly, they are terrible.
HR is not short for human relations. It’s short for human resources. Humans are resources.
Because this was a meeting about generalized HR policies. If you have an issue with somebody usually the most corrective action is to talk to them. It can be a work issue, it can be a hygiene issue it can be just an annoyance issue, not everything has to be out and out battle in sexual harassment. Now if it is sexual harassment and you don’t feel comfortable escalating they did outline other pathways. But since this is generalized guidance they’re providing multiple avenues from the most effective and least laborious, to the most laborious and least effective.
I got a talk with HR once because someone thought at some meeting I kept staring at her boobs. My literal answer was “er… what?”, because I didn’t even realize they were at that meeting, much less sitting right opposite me. I do however have a tendency of getting lost in thought and letting my eyes wander or fixate on some random thing, might be a plant, a chair, a random fixture, whatever… guess it could’ve been some boobs. 🙈🤷
If they had confronted me right after the meeting, I’d just apologize… but no, HR it was, and…
Since then, I make a point of carrying a pen and looking at that… just to avoid someone who I might not even notice is there, accusing me of sexually harassing them 🙄
I don’t see it as bias. It’s a good explanation, and I appreciate you taking the time!
Unless you count a few temp jobs, I’ve never worked in a corporate office.