They could have easily crammed the Steam Deck full of stuff to make it hard to use for piracy - locking down everything, making it usable only to play games you legitimately own, force you to go through who knows what hoops in order to play games on it. That’s what Nintendo or Apple or most other companies do.
But they didn’t, because they realized they didn’t have to. It’s 100% possible to put pirated games on the Steam Deck - in fact, it’s as easy as it could reasonably be. You copy it over, you wire it up to Steam, if it’s a non-Linux game you set it up with Proton or whatever else you want to use to run it, bam. You can now run it in Steam just as easily as a normal Steam game (usually.) If you want something similar to cloud saves you can even set up SyncThing for that.
But all of that is a lot of work, and after all that you still don’t have automatic updates, and some games won’t run this way for one reason or another even though they’ll run if you own them (usually, I assume, because of Steam Deck specific tweaks or install stuff that are only used when you’re running them on the Deck via the normal method.) Some of this you can work around but it’s even more hoops.
Whereas if you own a game it’s just push a button and play. They made legitimately owning a game more convenient than piracy, and they did it without relying on DRM or anything that restricts or annoys legitimate users at all - even if a game has a DRM-free GOG version, owning it on Steam will still make it easier to play on the Steam Deck.
Also they contribute loads to the Linux ecosystem so im happy to support them as I see it as a win/win . The sales are great too I spend like 50 ducats a year and get like 9 or 10 great games for that.
Yes, physical sales are miles better than digital. Even better if you shop used.
If you think Steam sales are still great, then you’re either young or have a crap memory. Used to be the case that 6-12 month old games went for 75% off and often more. The flash sales died and so did the bargains.
Now Steam is just ancient games at full price until the next sale so they can claim “60% off” again so it matches the price of a PS5 disc on Amazon or wherever.
that’s why i use spotify, almost all songs i want, great UI, the discovery algorithm is rad, and sharing a playlist for the communal work speaker is easy.
In my personal life, I run Linux on all my devices and I would never invest in non-opensource technology for my career. (Work forces me to run macOS, but that’s another story).
For years now, I happily and only buy games on Steam, even if I have the choice between Steam and NoDRM. Simply because Steam just works™ and is convenient. (Of course one never buys games on steam with a forced additional starter from Ubisoft etc.).
Steam is really great from a technically POV, from a giving back to the community point and from a customer friendliness point (never had a problem with a return).
I even bought a SteamDeck although I am no big fan of handhelds, and for what it is, it is great.
I’ll happily waste more money on my Steam backlog of shame. ;-)
I really like steam but I don’t use it exclusively and I wouldn’t recommend doing so.
I shop around and I own many games on GOG in particular, which is DRM free and also convenient in its own way. They provide installers for games so your library is truly independent, and I have used Lutris and Minigalaxy to get those games running on Linux (with Proton) including on the Deck
Steam is great but it is basically DRM and not the be all and end all of gaming. Competition is good for everyone and I will generally try and buy from GOG if the price is the same or even if it’s slightly higher because I truly own my game data. That has a value in itself.
I’m a big fan of steam and gog. Steam does better “out of the box” on Linux but you can generally get anything running just as well on gog with minor faffing about. But one thing gog has that I love is the ability to play an older version of the game. New updates breaking something or otherwise not what you wanted, on steam you don’t have a choice usually but the newest version, on gog you can just select an older version and play that.
some games won’t run this way for one reason or another even though they’ll run if you own them (usually, I assume, because of Steam Deck specific tweaks or install stuff that are only used when you’re running them on the Deck via the normal method.)
A lot of this is just easier to do from legit steam setup, not impossible. I don’t usually pirate games (I want to support devs making things playable on Linux when I buy from Steam or making DRM-free stuff when I buy from Gog). But I do have a lot of stuff that I run outside of steam in plain old wine without proton or wine-wrapper tools like lutris. I haven’t come across many games that I have on Gog that you can’t run in wine itself but I will agree that it is sometimes a lot more work. I’m also on a desktop PC using Linux, so not completely the same as a steam deck but runtime-wise it should be pretty darn close.
It’s 100% possible to put pirated games on the Switch - in fact, it’s as easy as it could reasonably be.
I wish it was that easy! So far, the only way I know of is a hardmod, which already DQs for any remotely sensible form of DIY, and means a very real possibility of turning the Switch into a fancy paperweight.
I know there’s Pegascape but 1.- it requires a stock V1 Switch, of which there’s extra-limited supply and lower TTL 2.- stuck in low firmware and 3.- it’s a volatile entrypoint anyway. So I never count it.
It’s interesting you mention Apple because while I have every expectation that you’re correct at the moment, the iPod absolutely benefited from piracy. iTunes allowed you to add your own songs to your library to sync with the device, and iTunes could also be argued to have been on a similar model to Steam because you’d pay to ‘own’ the songs and there was no subscription giving you access to songs.
Then again, music streaming services pretty much removed music piracy from mainstream usage altogether. Obviously people in this sub still pirate music, but it’s so uncommon nowadays, I’m sure many people wouldn’t even know where or how to find it.
Then they started to remove songs you own, and songs from your hard drive that iTunes had nothing to do with it… Fucking apple cultists. You really never see any fault in your chosen god?
Is that a rhetorical question? I’ve had a few Apple products mostly in the past or issued to me from when, but I prefer android even when it can be disappointing to me sometimes. Was launching into nandroid via Haret when Windows Mobile devices were a thing too. I don’t prefer Apple stuff but whether it be sincere or perhaps theatrics, it seems like you’ve got an unnecessary and over aggressive revulsion towards them.
I think they’re talking about the OG one not whatever they’re doing since then and they’re 100% correct. Every track on the Ipod nano I had was pirated. Idk what apple has done since then because that was the only apple device I ever used at all and I ended up replacing it with PSP but they did originally benefit from piracy because I wouldn’t have bought it if I wasn’t able to add my own music like that.
Your argument that the Steam deck is emblematic of Gabe’s statement of piracy being a service issue, is somehow reinforced by telling us all of the artificial hoops you have to jump through to pirate on the Steam Deck? That’s just DRM with extra steps.
DRM is an artificial obstacle put in place to get in the way of something entirely technologically possible.
The elements discussed here are just the natural steps to perform an action outside of the standard workflow, and are actually of reasonable difficulty. Saying “you are free to do it, but I’m not going to help you” is the exact opposite of DRM.
I didn’t get the impression that those hoops were artificial. They aren’t providing support for it, but that’s different from actively obstructing people.
They could have easily crammed the Steam Deck full of stuff to make it hard to use for piracy - locking down everything, making it usable only to play games you legitimately own, force you to go through who knows what hoops in order to play games on it. That’s what Nintendo or Apple or most other companies do.
Doing the absolute bare minimum to not be consumer hostile does not warrant praise. Just because Nintendo or Apple are worse doesn’t mean Valve is heroic for not doing things they really shouldn’t have the right to do anyway.
Well, I stopped pirating games a long ago because of steam, because of how good it was/is as a service and low prices. I don’t think any game publisher should cry about steam prices, because when the AAA game is just released and for a full price, millions of FOMOs run to buy it. And I can wait and see if it’s worth it.
Steam itself has some kind of DRM. You need to login to Steam to access the games you bought (sure there’s offline mode but then you can’t download your games, update or buy more, so it’s only temporary convenience). If Steam dies one day, so will your Steam games library.
However, the service is great, so it’s not annoying.
Yeah. What I mean is that the Steam Deck itself doesn’t add anything special in that regard to fight piracy.
(Plus, I mean, Steam’s base DRM is like a screen door or a “please do not pirate” sign, lol. If Steam dies one day, Steam DRM won’t be a problem because you can basically crack it by breathing on it too hard. I assume that is purpose is to ensure that you have to violate the DMCA’s anti-circumvention provisions to pirate their games, not to actually slow down pirates at this point.)
Steam DRM is trivial to circumvent, it’s basically cheap locks screwed onto the game with security torx, not even riveted: If you have a toolbelt you’re already in and every skiddie with half a brain cell can do it as Valve doesn’t bother defeating the scripts that are floating around.
What it does prevent is random tech-illiterate people copying game files to their friend’s box.
If Steam dies one day then my library would be largely lost, yes, but not due to DRM but because most of my library isn’t actually on my disk.
The Steam DRM wrapper by itself is not an anti-piracy solution. The Steam DRM wrapper protects against extremely casual piracy (i.e. copying all game files to another computer) and has some obfuscation, but it is easily removed by a motivated attacker.
So thanks to not having signed in for a couple months, I actually still had notifications from the last time I chatted about this, and here’s the information someone else found when they looked into it.
In summary, this “policy” is at best someone (maybe even GabeN) stating back in 2009 and 2013 that games will still be (somehow) made available to customers if Steam shuts down.
As far as I know (please correct me if I’m wrong), there’s nothing in the Steam Subscriber Agreement that obligates Steam/Valve to do it. And even if there were, there’s nothing saying they can’t just update the SSA to remove such a term.
Furthermore, even if Valve wants to do this if Steam ever shuts down, considering Steam’s size I’d say it’s less likely to be shut down and more likely to just get sold off if Valve ever does become insolvent, and the new owner of Steam can’t be held to this promise anyway.
So, while it’d definitely be good if this were the case, this seems to be more wishful than written-in-stone.
You mean the last part is not correct. I did forget that I heard that point before. However, it is still a DRM and you are relying on a promise made by a for-profit company that it will be removed if necessary. I don’t think history showed this kind of trust is deserved. Steam is doing good right now and has a strong founder and leader. What happens when he’s gone in 20 years, and the company has financial troubles?
Valve is currently a private company, which is likely why they’ve been able to avoid enshittification for so long. All we can do is hope that whoever eventually takes over when Gabe steps down also has his ideals at heart.
Things can definitely change, but I’ve got half a dozen games that still run that you can’t get on steam anymore. You can also add games that steam doesn’t sell so I get the skepticism but so far they’ve been good
They can do that for games using steam drm. Even for games using custom drm they can let it remain on your pc if you have already downloaded it, it’s not their duty to remove games from your pc even if devs pull games from steam. Whether custom drm games continue to work or not will depend on if they phone home are not.
Anyone can be sued obviously, but there will be no ashes, they aren’t random Joes to be afraid of legal trolls.
Right, not to mention they also giving back to community by proposing game friendly changes on kernel AFAIK.
If just most games wold run on Linux out of box at least same as on Windows, i can imagine there would be shift in market share.
One of the reason is needless bloat of Windows so even my for-noobs-distro idles around 0% CPU and less the 1gb memory without doing almost any tweaking but Win10/11 constantly sends calls home and idles on 4-6GB of rams. Other thing is how lightning fast linux can be.
If just most games wold run on Linux out of box at least same as on Windows, i can imagine there would be shift in market share.
You could argue that this is somewhat true by looking at the protondb numbers for the top 1000 games. 88% of the games are silver rated or better and the majority of those 12% games are competitive multiplayer titles with weird/invasive anti cheats.
Ram usage is really nothing to worry about depending on the amount you have. Windows will free ram where needed as long as there is enough. If ram is not being used by applications it will be used for other things (it will be cached I believe?). If almost no ram is being used it means some things might take longer to load.
Windows on my Surface Go 2 used about 3-4GB of ram when idle, while on my work laptop with 64GB ram it uses about 10-12GB. But if necessary applications can use some of that ram that’s normally being used in idle.
I do agree about Linux distros being faster, that’s my experience as well.
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The new oled is so good. Its a night and day difference in sdr and hdr. Worth it.
This was already proven at the height of Netflix, before streaming service hell.
Also they contribute loads to the Linux ecosystem so im happy to support them as I see it as a win/win . The sales are great too I spend like 50 ducats a year and get like 9 or 10 great games for that.
The sales are shit and have been for years.
The price of PC getting popular I guess.
Ever tried to buy a game on a console?
Yes, physical sales are miles better than digital. Even better if you shop used.
If you think Steam sales are still great, then you’re either young or have a crap memory. Used to be the case that 6-12 month old games went for 75% off and often more. The flash sales died and so did the bargains.
Now Steam is just ancient games at full price until the next sale so they can claim “60% off” again so it matches the price of a PS5 disc on Amazon or wherever.
that’s why i use spotify, almost all songs i want, great UI, the discovery algorithm is rad, and sharing a playlist for the communal work speaker is easy.
Steam dick
What a useful comment
Steam dick
Huh?
Steam dick
Say no more fam
In my personal life, I run Linux on all my devices and I would never invest in non-opensource technology for my career. (Work forces me to run macOS, but that’s another story).
For years now, I happily and only buy games on Steam, even if I have the choice between Steam and NoDRM. Simply because Steam just works™ and is convenient. (Of course one never buys games on steam with a forced additional starter from Ubisoft etc.).
Steam is really great from a technically POV, from a giving back to the community point and from a customer friendliness point (never had a problem with a return).
I even bought a SteamDeck although I am no big fan of handhelds, and for what it is, it is great.
I’ll happily waste more money on my Steam backlog of shame. ;-)
I really like steam but I don’t use it exclusively and I wouldn’t recommend doing so.
I shop around and I own many games on GOG in particular, which is DRM free and also convenient in its own way. They provide installers for games so your library is truly independent, and I have used Lutris and Minigalaxy to get those games running on Linux (with Proton) including on the Deck
Steam is great but it is basically DRM and not the be all and end all of gaming. Competition is good for everyone and I will generally try and buy from GOG if the price is the same or even if it’s slightly higher because I truly own my game data. That has a value in itself.
I’m a big fan of steam and gog. Steam does better “out of the box” on Linux but you can generally get anything running just as well on gog with minor faffing about. But one thing gog has that I love is the ability to play an older version of the game. New updates breaking something or otherwise not what you wanted, on steam you don’t have a choice usually but the newest version, on gog you can just select an older version and play that.
A lot of this is just easier to do from legit steam setup, not impossible. I don’t usually pirate games (I want to support devs making things playable on Linux when I buy from Steam or making DRM-free stuff when I buy from Gog). But I do have a lot of stuff that I run outside of steam in plain old wine without proton or wine-wrapper tools like lutris. I haven’t come across many games that I have on Gog that you can’t run in wine itself but I will agree that it is sometimes a lot more work. I’m also on a desktop PC using Linux, so not completely the same as a steam deck but runtime-wise it should be pretty darn close.
I wish it was that easy! So far, the only way I know of is a hardmod, which already DQs for any remotely sensible form of DIY, and means a very real possibility of turning the Switch into a fancy paperweight.
I think OP accidentally wrote Switch instead of Steamdeck
There’s definitely a soft mod, but I’m assuming you’re talking about newer switches
I know there’s Pegascape but 1.- it requires a stock V1 Switch, of which there’s extra-limited supply and lower TTL 2.- stuck in low firmware and 3.- it’s a volatile entrypoint anyway. So I never count it.
Yeah I don’t know what that is. I just meant fusee-gelee.
Think op means the steam deck, not switch.
It’s interesting you mention Apple because while I have every expectation that you’re correct at the moment, the iPod absolutely benefited from piracy. iTunes allowed you to add your own songs to your library to sync with the device, and iTunes could also be argued to have been on a similar model to Steam because you’d pay to ‘own’ the songs and there was no subscription giving you access to songs.
Then again, music streaming services pretty much removed music piracy from mainstream usage altogether. Obviously people in this sub still pirate music, but it’s so uncommon nowadays, I’m sure many people wouldn’t even know where or how to find it.
Then they started to remove songs you own, and songs from your hard drive that iTunes had nothing to do with it… Fucking apple cultists. You really never see any fault in your chosen god?
Is that a rhetorical question? I’ve had a few Apple products mostly in the past or issued to me from when, but I prefer android even when it can be disappointing to me sometimes. Was launching into nandroid via Haret when Windows Mobile devices were a thing too. I don’t prefer Apple stuff but whether it be sincere or perhaps theatrics, it seems like you’ve got an unnecessary and over aggressive revulsion towards them.
What? I’ve been using iPhones with pirated songs for 10+ years and never had this happen.
Genuinely curious, I know Apple does shit like that sometimes so I wouldn’t put it past them, but I’ve never seen happen or heard about this.
So apple does something crappy… And you’re upset with the people that enjoy their services?
How is your comment at all relevant to the idea of Apple benefiting from piracy?
I think they’re talking about the OG one not whatever they’re doing since then and they’re 100% correct. Every track on the Ipod nano I had was pirated. Idk what apple has done since then because that was the only apple device I ever used at all and I ended up replacing it with PSP but they did originally benefit from piracy because I wouldn’t have bought it if I wasn’t able to add my own music like that.
Your argument that the Steam deck is emblematic of Gabe’s statement of piracy being a service issue, is somehow reinforced by telling us all of the artificial hoops you have to jump through to pirate on the Steam Deck? That’s just DRM with extra steps.
That’s not what DRM is and pirating has always involved extra steps.
No.
DRM is an artificial obstacle put in place to get in the way of something entirely technologically possible.
The elements discussed here are just the natural steps to perform an action outside of the standard workflow, and are actually of reasonable difficulty. Saying “you are free to do it, but I’m not going to help you” is the exact opposite of DRM.
I didn’t get the impression that those hoops were artificial. They aren’t providing support for it, but that’s different from actively obstructing people.
Doing the absolute bare minimum to not be consumer hostile does not warrant praise. Just because Nintendo or Apple are worse doesn’t mean Valve is heroic for not doing things they really shouldn’t have the right to do anyway.
I literally stopped playing my pirated copy of Spider-Man Remastered to play an official copy on the Steam Deck because it was on sale.
Well, I stopped pirating games a long ago because of steam, because of how good it was/is as a service and low prices. I don’t think any game publisher should cry about steam prices, because when the AAA game is just released and for a full price, millions of FOMOs run to buy it. And I can wait and see if it’s worth it.
Steam itself has some kind of DRM. You need to login to Steam to access the games you bought (sure there’s offline mode but then you can’t download your games, update or buy more, so it’s only temporary convenience). If Steam dies one day, so will your Steam games library.
However, the service is great, so it’s not annoying.
I feel like if Steam dies we’re in some kind of end of the world scenario anyway so there probably wouldn’t be time to game anymore.
Or maybe exclusively time to game as we live in our caves waiting for the fallout to settle. How many watts is a potato?
It’s optional for devs so plenty of games don’t use it at all
That’s an interesting point.
Obviously you would need to be in online mode to download something. That’s how the Internet works.
Yeah. What I mean is that the Steam Deck itself doesn’t add anything special in that regard to fight piracy.
(Plus, I mean, Steam’s base DRM is like a screen door or a “please do not pirate” sign, lol. If Steam dies one day, Steam DRM won’t be a problem because you can basically crack it by breathing on it too hard. I assume that is purpose is to ensure that you have to violate the DMCA’s anti-circumvention provisions to pirate their games, not to actually slow down pirates at this point.)
Steam DRM is trivial to circumvent, it’s basically cheap locks screwed onto the game with security torx, not even riveted: If you have a toolbelt you’re already in and every skiddie with half a brain cell can do it as Valve doesn’t bother defeating the scripts that are floating around.
What it does prevent is random tech-illiterate people copying game files to their friend’s box.
If Steam dies one day then my library would be largely lost, yes, but not due to DRM but because most of my library isn’t actually on my disk.
Even Steam themselves say it sucks for preventing piracy:
Plus, it’s optional for devs.
That is absolutely not correct.
Steam policy is if valve shuts it down, they’ll give you enough time to download all the games and run them without drm.
That’s a good policy. As long as the right people are still around to enforce it, it’s a little reassuring.
Yeah I mean that’s a fundamental problem.
We can a) trust people/companies as long as they don’t give us a reason to not trust them.
Or b) we can never trust anyone but then this discussion is pointless anyway.
If there was no DRM we wouldn’t need to trust anyone to undo it.
Or if that emergency release of the DRM was a contractual guarantee we had at point of purchase, we’d also need less trust.
So thanks to not having signed in for a couple months, I actually still had notifications from the last time I chatted about this, and here’s the information someone else found when they looked into it.
https://leminal.space/comment/2351525 (see this excerpted comment chain)
In summary, this “policy” is at best someone (maybe even GabeN) stating back in 2009 and 2013 that games will still be (somehow) made available to customers if Steam shuts down.
As far as I know (please correct me if I’m wrong), there’s nothing in the Steam Subscriber Agreement that obligates Steam/Valve to do it. And even if there were, there’s nothing saying they can’t just update the SSA to remove such a term.
Furthermore, even if Valve wants to do this if Steam ever shuts down, considering Steam’s size I’d say it’s less likely to be shut down and more likely to just get sold off if Valve ever does become insolvent, and the new owner of Steam can’t be held to this promise anyway.
So, while it’d definitely be good if this were the case, this seems to be more wishful than written-in-stone.
Uh…ALL of them? I’m gonna need more storage.
Usefull idiot talk.
You mean the last part is not correct. I did forget that I heard that point before. However, it is still a DRM and you are relying on a promise made by a for-profit company that it will be removed if necessary. I don’t think history showed this kind of trust is deserved. Steam is doing good right now and has a strong founder and leader. What happens when he’s gone in 20 years, and the company has financial troubles?
Yeah, I too can make wildly lofty promises that probably won’t need to ever be verified.
Valve is one of the few companies I would someone trust with this promise… So long as the current people in charge are still in charge.
Whoever takes over might have very different ideas.
This is exactly my issue with every single company. They start off great and then the original owner/CEO croaks and we get Mr/Mrs Chicago Business School asshole who swoops in For The Shareholders™ and burns all the goodwill to the ground in the name of Profits!™©®
That’s my problem with all of patent and copyright. The people who make something matter are not the money people who claimed it all.
Valve is currently a private company, which is likely why they’ve been able to avoid enshittification for so long. All we can do is hope that whoever eventually takes over when Gabe steps down also has his ideals at heart.
They won’t. It will go to the highest bidder. Every company does. Stop thinking your favourite one is a special exception. The problem is systemic.
Things can definitely change, but I’ve got half a dozen games that still run that you can’t get on steam anymore. You can also add games that steam doesn’t sell so I get the skepticism but so far they’ve been good
Can’t buy or can’t install anymore? Because that’s a huge difference in my book.
You can reinstall any game you’ve purchased even after it’s no longer being sold.
They can revoke stuff from your library.
They just usually don’t have a reason to do so.
(Also, you might not be able to get older versions of the game anymore. Meaning that you may be stuck with unwanted content changes in some games.)
They can’t revoke anything if it’s not installed where they think it is.
That’s what I meant to imply.
There’s literally no way they could do that without being sued into ashes.
Explain
They can do that for games using steam drm. Even for games using custom drm they can let it remain on your pc if you have already downloaded it, it’s not their duty to remove games from your pc even if devs pull games from steam. Whether custom drm games continue to work or not will depend on if they phone home are not.
Anyone can be sued obviously, but there will be no ashes, they aren’t random Joes to be afraid of legal trolls.
*only the games you didnt download
Right, not to mention they also giving back to community by proposing game friendly changes on kernel AFAIK.
If just most games wold run on Linux out of box at least same as on Windows, i can imagine there would be shift in market share.
One of the reason is needless bloat of Windows so even my for-noobs-distro idles around 0% CPU and less the 1gb memory without doing almost any tweaking but Win10/11 constantly sends calls home and idles on 4-6GB of rams. Other thing is how lightning fast linux can be.
You could argue that this is somewhat true by looking at the protondb numbers for the top 1000 games. 88% of the games are silver rated or better and the majority of those 12% games are competitive multiplayer titles with weird/invasive anti cheats.
Ram usage is really nothing to worry about depending on the amount you have. Windows will free ram where needed as long as there is enough. If ram is not being used by applications it will be used for other things (it will be cached I believe?). If almost no ram is being used it means some things might take longer to load.
Windows on my Surface Go 2 used about 3-4GB of ram when idle, while on my work laptop with 64GB ram it uses about 10-12GB. But if necessary applications can use some of that ram that’s normally being used in idle.
I do agree about Linux distros being faster, that’s my experience as well.
I believe Mac does this as well. If you have a lot of ram the os will use more ram as cache cause unused ram is wasted ram
Exactly, most, if not all, os’s do this.