I woke up this morning to a text from my ISP, “There is an outage in your area, we are working to resolve the issue”
I laugh, this is what I live for! Almost all of my services are self hosted, I’m barely going to notice the difference!
Wrong.
When the internet went out, the power also went out for a few seconds. Four small computers host all of my services. Of those, one shutdown, and three rebooted. Of the three that ugly rebooted some services came back online, some didn’t.
30 minutes later, ISP sends out the text that service is back online.
2 hours later I’m still finding down services on my network.
Moral of the story: A UPS has moved to the top of the shopping list! Any suggestions??
Did the services fail to come back due to the bad reboot, or would they have failed to come back on a clean reboot? I ugly reboot my stuff all the time, and unless the hardware fails, i can be pretty sure its all going to come back. Getting your stuff to survive reboot is probably a better spend of effort.
Yeah an unclean reboot shouldn’t break anything as long as it wasn’t doing anything when it went down. I’ve never had any issues when I have to crash a computer unless it was stuck doing an update.
I didn’t mean to imply that Services actually broke. Only that they didn’t come back after a reboot. A clean reboot may have caused some of the same issues because, I’m learning as I go. Some services are restarted by systemctl, some by cron, some…manual. This is certainly a wake up call that I need standardize and simplify the way the services are started.
On the uptime monitoring I’ve been quite happy with uptime kuma, but… If you put it on the same host that’s down… Well, that’s not going to work :p (I nearly made that mistake)
It’s not the most detailed thing, but I just use a free account on cron-job.org to send a head request every two minutes to a few services that are reachable from the internet (either just their homepage or some ping endpoint in the API) and then used the status page functionality to have a simple second status page on a third party server.
You can do a bit more on their paid tier, but so far I didn’t need that.
On the other hand, you could try if a free tier/cheap small vps on one of the many cloud providers is sufficient for an uptime Kuma installation. Just don’t use the same cloud provider as all other of your services run in.
look at efficiency. It’s not always neglible, was like 40% of my energy usage because I oversized the UPS. The efficiency is calculated from top power the UPS can supply. 96% efficient 3kW UPS eats 4% of 3kW, 120 watts, even if the load you connected is much smaller than 3kW
look at noise level. Mine was loud almost like a rack server, because of all the fans.
I replaced that noisy, power hungry beast with a small quiet 900W APC and I couldn’t be happier
I use a laptop and external jbod covered with a low power ups. As other said, the point is to bridge powergaps now long term working powerless. I live in the countrisied, so small powergaps happens specially when my photovoltaic don’t produce (no, i have no battery accumulators, too expensive)
Thats no longer a UPS.
You could get something like a powerwall, something designed to power things from batteries for a long time.
Or get a generator with an automatic failover. The UPS then covers the downtime between powerfailure and generator taking load
Generally, UPS (lead acid) batteries are not designed for long-cycle deep discharge.
They are designed to hold their rated load for a minute or so until the power is restored (generators start, power-uncuts) or the servers have a chance to shut down.
But maybe thats dated information, and modern UPSs are designed to run from batteries for a few hours.
A general tip on buying UPSes: look for second hand ones - people often don’t realise you can just replace the battery in them (or can’t be bothered) so you can get fancier/larger ones very cheap.
Why? If the power has gone out there are very few situations (I can’t actually think of any except brownouts or other transient power loss) where it would be useful to power my server for much longer than it takes to shut down safely.
Longer means you’re more likely to be able to ride out a power cut, and gives you more options if you want/need to complete something more involved than saving and shutting down.
Could also be a good opportunity to add a service monitor like Uptime Kuma. That way you know what services are still down once things come back online with less manual discovery on your part.
when you say some services on your network are you talking about machines or softwares?
for machines yes ups makes sense for softwares writing some scripts to run on start up should be enough another alternative can be setting up wake on Lan that way you can bring all up again wherever you are
They will do power conditioning? My modem is such a sensitive baby I cannot plug anything else in next to it or it starts dropping packets. Would a UPS help with that? Unfortunately I cannot replace the modem, that’s the only one the ISP will give me.
Yes. An online/double-conversion UPS will be the most effective, because it actually runs off the battery the whole time, so it’s disconnected from any line quality issues.
A line-interactive UPS is cheaper, but doesn’t do full power conditioning.
An offline UPS doesn’t do any at all, only comes online when power drops.
My favorite part about using an old laptop as a 24/7/365 plugged-in server is the anticipation of when the lithium battery will explode from overcharging.
“overcharging” doesn’t exist. There are two circuits preventing the battery from being charged beyond 100%: the usual battery controller, and normally another protection circuit in the battery cell. Sitting at 100% and being warm all the time is enough for a significant hit on the cell’s longetivity though. An easy measure that is possible on many laptops (like thinkpads) is to set a threshold where to stop charging at. Ideal for longetivity is around 60%. Also ensure good cooling.
Sorry for being pedantic, but as an electricial engineer it annoys me that there’s more wrong information about li-po/-ion batteries, chargers and even usb wall warts and usb power delivery than there’s correct information.
For many li-ion laptop batteries, the manufacturer’s configuration of a 100 % charge is pretty much equivalent to overcharging. I’ve seen many laptops over the years with swollen batteries, almost all of them had been plugged in all the time, with the battery kept at 100 % charge.
As an electrical engineer you should know that technically there is no 100 % charge for batteries. A battery can more or less safely be charged up to to a certain voltage. The 100 % charge point is something the manufacturer can choose (of course within limits depending on cell chemistry). A manufacturer can choose a higher cell voltage than another to gain a little more capacity, at the cost of longterm reliability. There are manufacturers that choose a cell voltage of 4250 mV and while that’s possible and works okay if charged only occasionally, if plugged in all the time, this pretty much ensures killing the batteries rather quickly. I would certainly call that overcharging.
Since you already mentioned charging thresholds, I just want to say, anyone considering using a laptop as a server should absolutely make use of this feature and limit the maximum charge.
Isn’t dendrite formation and the shorts they can cause a much bigger concern when dealing with old batteries that are being charged 24/7? Asking a genuine question here, so please don’t shoot me if I’m wrong. 🙂 I’d love to hear more about the most common failure modes and causes for li-po/ion batteries.
Those are symptoms of sitting at that operation point permanently, and they are a of course a concern. What I’m after is that people think that energy gets put in to the battery, i.e. it gets charged, as long as a “charger” is connected to the device (hence terms like “overcharged”). But that is not true, because what is commonly referred to as “charger” is no charger. It is just a power supply and has literally zero say in if, how and when the battery gets charged. It only gets charged if the charge controller in the device decides to do that now, and if the protection circuit allows it. And that is designed to only happen if the battery is not full. When it is full, nothing more happens, no currents flow in+out of the battery anymore. There’s no damage due to being charged all the time, because no device keeps on pumping energy into the cell if it is full.
There is however damage from sitting (!) at 100% charge with medium to high heat. That happens indipendently from a power supply being connected to the device or not. You can just as well damage your cells by charging them to 100% and storing them in a warm place while topping them of once in a while. This is why you want to have them at lower room temperature and at ~60%, no matter if a device/“charger” is connected or not.
(Of course keeping a battery at 60% all the time defeats the purpose of the battery. So just try to keep it cool, charged to >20% and <80% most of the time, and you’re fine)
IMHO you’re optimizing for the wrong thing. 100% availability is not something that’s attainable for a self-hoster without driving yourself crazy.
Like the other comment suggested, I’d rather invest time into having machines and services come back up smoothly after reboots.
That being said, an UPS may be relevant to your setup in other ways. For example it can allow a parity RAID array to shut down cleanly and reduce the risk of write holes. But that’s just one example, and an UPS is just one solution for that (others being ZFS, or non-parity RAID, or SAS/SATA controller cards with built-in battery and/or hardware RAID support etc.)
I agree that 99.999% uptime is a pipedream for most home labs, but I personally think a UPS is worth it, if only to give yourself the option to gracefully shut down systems in the event of a power outage.
Eventually, I’ll get a working script that checks the battery backup for mains power loss and handle the graceful shutdown for me, but right now that extra 10-15 minutes of battery backup is enough for a manual effort.
The problem is that for most self-hosters, they would be working and unavailable to do a graceful shutdown in any case even if they had a UPS unless they work fully from home with 0 meetings. If they are sleeping or at work, (>70% of the day for many or most) then it is useless without graceful shutdown scripts.
I just don’t worry about it and go through the 10 minute startup and verification process if anything happens. Easier to use an uptime monitor like uptimekuma and log checker like dozzle for all of your services available locally and remotely and see if anything failed to come back up.
Some of the nicer models of UPS have little servers built in for remote management, and also communicate to their tenants via USB or Serial or Emergency Power Off (EPO) Port.
You shouldn’t have to write a script that polls battery status, the UPS should tell you. Be told, don’t ask.
A lot of stuff on there isn’t worth buying either, like anything from APC. If you want good stuff, just get Eaton.
But also you have to understand that UPSes aren’t set and forget. The batteries need replacement every 3-5 years. And they’re not for extended outages, they’re mostly to bridge the gap between mains power going out and a generator starting up.
Personally I just have everything running from docker-compose, so I run one command and everything not running gets started. I don’t worry about stuff being down for a bit.
What’s wrong with APC? I have one for 6-7 years. I’ve changed the battery once and I think I’ll have to change it again this year. I didn’t have any problems with it.
When you are bored, backup a VM then hard kill it and see if it manage to restart properly.
Software should be able to recover from that.
If it doesn’t, troubleshoot.
While I appreciate the sentiment, most traditional VMs do not like to have their power killed (especially non-journaling file systems).
Even crash consistent applications can be impacted if the underlying host fs is affected by power loss.
I do think that backup are a valid suggestion here, provided that the backup is an interrupted by a power surge or loss.
Edit: even journaling file systems aren’t a magic bullet. I’ve had an ext4 fs get corrupted when IO was interrupted by power loss. I get the down votes for mentioning non-journaling FS, but seriously folks, use the swiss cheese method of protecting your stuff… backups, redundant power/UPS, documented/automated installation/configuration.
I would still consider that generation of filesystem to be effort to use while regular journaling filesystems have been so ubiquitous that you need to invest effort to avoid using one.
Maybe on some distros that is the case if you install a recent version but to get a non-journaling filesystem you literally have to partition manually to avoid using one on any distro that is still supported today and meant for full sized PCs (as opposed to embedded devices).
When I built my home server this is what I did with all VMs. Learned how to change the start up delay time in esxi and ensured everything came back online with no issues from a cold built.
You are not logged in. However you can subscribe from another Fediverse account, for example Lemmy or Mastodon. To do this, paste the following into the search field of your instance: !selfhosted@lemmy.world
A place to share alternatives to popular online services that can be self-hosted without giving up privacy or locking you into a service you don’t control.
Rules:
Be civil: we’re here to support and learn from one another. Insults won’t be tolerated. Flame wars are frowned upon.
No spam posting.
Posts have to be centered around self-hosting. There are other communities for discussing hardware or home computing. If it’s not obvious why your post topic revolves around selfhosting, please include details to make it clear.
Don’t duplicate the full text of your blog or github here. Just post the link for folks to click.
Submission headline should match the article title (don’t cherry-pick information from the title to fit your agenda).
No trolling.
Resources:
selfh.st Newsletter and index of selfhosted software and apps
Did the services fail to come back due to the bad reboot, or would they have failed to come back on a clean reboot? I ugly reboot my stuff all the time, and unless the hardware fails, i can be pretty sure its all going to come back. Getting your stuff to survive reboot is probably a better spend of effort.
Yeah an unclean reboot shouldn’t break anything as long as it wasn’t doing anything when it went down. I’ve never had any issues when I have to crash a computer unless it was stuck doing an update.
I didn’t mean to imply that Services actually broke. Only that they didn’t come back after a reboot. A clean reboot may have caused some of the same issues because, I’m learning as I go. Some services are restarted by systemctl, some by cron, some…manual. This is certainly a wake up call that I need standardize and simplify the way the services are started.
We’ve all.committed that sin before. Its better to rely on it surviving the reboot than to try prevent the reboot.
Also worth looking into some form of uptime monitoring software. When something goes down, you want to know about it asap.
And documenting your setup never hurts :D
On the uptime monitoring I’ve been quite happy with uptime kuma, but… If you put it on the same host that’s down… Well, that’s not going to work :p (I nearly made that mistake)
It’s not the most detailed thing, but I just use a free account on cron-job.org to send a head request every two minutes to a few services that are reachable from the internet (either just their homepage or some ping endpoint in the API) and then used the status page functionality to have a simple second status page on a third party server.
You can do a bit more on their paid tier, but so far I didn’t need that.
On the other hand, you could try if a free tier/cheap small vps on one of the many cloud providers is sufficient for an uptime Kuma installation. Just don’t use the same cloud provider as all other of your services run in.
Two pitfalls I had that you can avoid:
I replaced that noisy, power hungry beast with a small quiet 900W APC and I couldn’t be happier
I use a laptop and external jbod covered with a low power ups. As other said, the point is to bridge powergaps now long term working powerless. I live in the countrisied, so small powergaps happens specially when my photovoltaic don’t produce (no, i have no battery accumulators, too expensive)
In addition to ups, an LTE failover. I’ve had my Comcast crap be offline for hours.
I’d like that, but also a really long-running UPS. multi-hour power outages are surprisingly common in my area.
Thats no longer a UPS.
You could get something like a powerwall, something designed to power things from batteries for a long time.
Or get a generator with an automatic failover. The UPS then covers the downtime between powerfailure and generator taking load
Why is that no longer a UPS?
Generally, UPS (lead acid) batteries are not designed for long-cycle deep discharge.
They are designed to hold their rated load for a minute or so until the power is restored (generators start, power-uncuts) or the servers have a chance to shut down.
But maybe thats dated information, and modern UPSs are designed to run from batteries for a few hours.
That seems like a weirdly and artificially narrow definition of UPS.
UPS with usb allows you to configure a script to properly shutdown your server when a power outage happens and the UPS battery is about to run out.
A general tip on buying UPSes: look for second hand ones - people often don’t realise you can just replace the battery in them (or can’t be bothered) so you can get fancier/larger ones very cheap.
Also, a larger capacity one is better, and it’s likely you’ll find a secondhand one with more capacity/features for a similar price.
Why? If the power has gone out there are very few situations (I can’t actually think of any except brownouts or other transient power loss) where it would be useful to power my server for much longer than it takes to shut down safely.
Longer means you’re more likely to be able to ride out a power cut, and gives you more options if you want/need to complete something more involved than saving and shutting down.
Could also be a good opportunity to add a service monitor like Uptime Kuma. That way you know what services are still down once things come back online with less manual discovery on your part.
when you say some services on your network are you talking about machines or softwares?
for machines yes ups makes sense for softwares writing some scripts to run on start up should be enough another alternative can be setting up wake on Lan that way you can bring all up again wherever you are
Not APC. (At least for Windows) trashy software.
It doesn’t need the software, it gets recognized by the system as a battery
Exact same thing happened to me the other day. Like exactly. Maybe we live in the same area.
A UPS should always be your first or second purchase if only for power conditioning and brown-out protection.
They will do power conditioning? My modem is such a sensitive baby I cannot plug anything else in next to it or it starts dropping packets. Would a UPS help with that? Unfortunately I cannot replace the modem, that’s the only one the ISP will give me.
Yes. An online/double-conversion UPS will be the most effective, because it actually runs off the battery the whole time, so it’s disconnected from any line quality issues.
A line-interactive UPS is cheaper, but doesn’t do full power conditioning.
An offline UPS doesn’t do any at all, only comes online when power drops.
https://community.fs.com/article/line-interactive-vs-online-vs-offline-ups.html
You should buy a UPS if those things are concerns for you. If not, then don’t.
Laptops
My favorite part about using an old laptop as a 24/7/365 plugged-in server is the anticipation of when the lithium battery will explode from overcharging.
“overcharging” doesn’t exist. There are two circuits preventing the battery from being charged beyond 100%: the usual battery controller, and normally another protection circuit in the battery cell. Sitting at 100% and being warm all the time is enough for a significant hit on the cell’s longetivity though. An easy measure that is possible on many laptops (like thinkpads) is to set a threshold where to stop charging at. Ideal for longetivity is around 60%. Also ensure good cooling.
Sorry for being pedantic, but as an electricial engineer it annoys me that there’s more wrong information about li-po/-ion batteries, chargers and even usb wall warts and usb power delivery than there’s correct information.
For many li-ion laptop batteries, the manufacturer’s configuration of a 100 % charge is pretty much equivalent to overcharging. I’ve seen many laptops over the years with swollen batteries, almost all of them had been plugged in all the time, with the battery kept at 100 % charge.
As an electrical engineer you should know that technically there is no 100 % charge for batteries. A battery can more or less safely be charged up to to a certain voltage. The 100 % charge point is something the manufacturer can choose (of course within limits depending on cell chemistry). A manufacturer can choose a higher cell voltage than another to gain a little more capacity, at the cost of longterm reliability. There are manufacturers that choose a cell voltage of 4250 mV and while that’s possible and works okay if charged only occasionally, if plugged in all the time, this pretty much ensures killing the batteries rather quickly. I would certainly call that overcharging.
Since you already mentioned charging thresholds, I just want to say, anyone considering using a laptop as a server should absolutely make use of this feature and limit the maximum charge.
Isn’t dendrite formation and the shorts they can cause a much bigger concern when dealing with old batteries that are being charged 24/7? Asking a genuine question here, so please don’t shoot me if I’m wrong. 🙂 I’d love to hear more about the most common failure modes and causes for li-po/ion batteries.
Those are symptoms of sitting at that operation point permanently, and they are a of course a concern. What I’m after is that people think that energy gets put in to the battery, i.e. it gets charged, as long as a “charger” is connected to the device (hence terms like “overcharged”). But that is not true, because what is commonly referred to as “charger” is no charger. It is just a power supply and has literally zero say in if, how and when the battery gets charged. It only gets charged if the charge controller in the device decides to do that now, and if the protection circuit allows it. And that is designed to only happen if the battery is not full. When it is full, nothing more happens, no currents flow in+out of the battery anymore. There’s no damage due to being charged all the time, because no device keeps on pumping energy into the cell if it is full.
There is however damage from sitting (!) at 100% charge with medium to high heat. That happens indipendently from a power supply being connected to the device or not. You can just as well damage your cells by charging them to 100% and storing them in a warm place while topping them of once in a while. This is why you want to have them at lower room temperature and at ~60%, no matter if a device/“charger” is connected or not.
(Of course keeping a battery at 60% all the time defeats the purpose of the battery. So just try to keep it cool, charged to >20% and <80% most of the time, and you’re fine)
IMHO you’re optimizing for the wrong thing. 100% availability is not something that’s attainable for a self-hoster without driving yourself crazy.
Like the other comment suggested, I’d rather invest time into having machines and services come back up smoothly after reboots.
That being said, an UPS may be relevant to your setup in other ways. For example it can allow a parity RAID array to shut down cleanly and reduce the risk of write holes. But that’s just one example, and an UPS is just one solution for that (others being ZFS, or non-parity RAID, or SAS/SATA controller cards with built-in battery and/or hardware RAID support etc.)
I agree that 99.999% uptime is a pipedream for most home labs, but I personally think a UPS is worth it, if only to give yourself the option to gracefully shut down systems in the event of a power outage.
Eventually, I’ll get a working script that checks the battery backup for mains power loss and handle the graceful shutdown for me, but right now that extra 10-15 minutes of battery backup is enough for a manual effort.
The problem is that for most self-hosters, they would be working and unavailable to do a graceful shutdown in any case even if they had a UPS unless they work fully from home with 0 meetings. If they are sleeping or at work, (>70% of the day for many or most) then it is useless without graceful shutdown scripts.
I just don’t worry about it and go through the 10 minute startup and verification process if anything happens. Easier to use an uptime monitor like uptimekuma and log checker like dozzle for all of your services available locally and remotely and see if anything failed to come back up.
Some of the nicer models of UPS have little servers built in for remote management, and also communicate to their tenants via USB or Serial or Emergency Power Off (EPO) Port.
You shouldn’t have to write a script that polls battery status, the UPS should tell you. Be told, don’t ask.
I present to you the holy hardware compatibility table:
https://networkupstools.org/stable-hcl.html
Anything not listed there is not worth buying.
A lot of stuff on there isn’t worth buying either, like anything from APC. If you want good stuff, just get Eaton.
But also you have to understand that UPSes aren’t set and forget. The batteries need replacement every 3-5 years. And they’re not for extended outages, they’re mostly to bridge the gap between mains power going out and a generator starting up.
Personally I just have everything running from docker-compose, so I run one command and everything not running gets started. I don’t worry about stuff being down for a bit.
Eatons batteries are usually really simple to switch, see
https://www.eaton.com/content/dam/eaton/products/backup-power-ups-surge-it-power-distribution/backup-power-ups/eaton-5s-ups/eaton-5s-120v-user-manual-700-1000-1500-lcd.pdf
For me they are meant for allowing a graceful shutdown in a powerout scenario and to protect the hardware behind them from power surges.
What’s wrong with APC? I have one for 6-7 years. I’ve changed the battery once and I think I’ll have to change it again this year. I didn’t have any problems with it.
Trash software.
At least their service is good.
When you are bored, backup a VM then hard kill it and see if it manage to restart properly.
Software should be able to recover from that.
If it doesn’t, troubleshoot.
That reminds me of Netflix’s Chaos Monkey (basically in office hours this tool will randomly kill stuff).
While I appreciate the sentiment, most traditional VMs do not like to have their power killed (especially non-journaling file systems).
Even crash consistent applications can be impacted if the underlying host fs is affected by power loss.
I do think that backup are a valid suggestion here, provided that the backup is an interrupted by a power surge or loss.
Edit: even journaling file systems aren’t a magic bullet. I’ve had an ext4 fs get corrupted when IO was interrupted by power loss. I get the down votes for mentioning non-journaling FS, but seriously folks, use the swiss cheese method of protecting your stuff… backups, redundant power/UPS, documented/automated installation/configuration.
Why are you using a non-journaling file system in 2024 when those were common 10+ years ago?
Or even better use something like ZFS with CoW that can’t corrupt on power loss
I would still consider that generation of filesystem to be effort to use while regular journaling filesystems have been so ubiquitous that you need to invest effort to avoid using one.
It was supported and the default out of the box when I installed my OS
Maybe on some distros that is the case if you install a recent version but to get a non-journaling filesystem you literally have to partition manually to avoid using one on any distro that is still supported today and meant for full sized PCs (as opposed to embedded devices).
Are you talking about Linux distros? What manual partitioning has to occur?
and don’t fuck with sync writes
It’s been a while since a power cut affected my services, is this why?
I remember having to troubleshoot mysql corruption following abrupt power loss, is this no longer a thing?
Databases shouldn’t even need a journaling filesystem, they usually pay attention to when to use fsync and fdatasync.
In fact journaling filesystems basically use the same mechanisms as databases only for filesystem metadata.
Your system should be fine after a hard kill. If its not stop using it as that’s going to be a problem down the road.
When I built my home server this is what I did with all VMs. Learned how to change the start up delay time in esxi and ensured everything came back online with no issues from a cold built.
Rip VMware.