Meme “the number of people who think this is an abomination” over a photo of a USB-A to USB-A cable, “but think this is perfectly acceptable” over a photo of a USB-C to USB-C cable, “makes me sick.”
I absolutely have some Type C cables that only work one way because there’s no enforced standards and the manufacturer will wire them however is cheap, throw on another company’s logo, and sell it to Amazom.
There is absolutely a certification process, but playing legal whack-a-mole with fly-by-night counterfeiters is difficult.
This is why buying reputable brands from reputable sellers is important.
But even then, I remember years ago I read an article about major retailers selling counterfeit brand name SD cards that didn’t meet the labeled performance specifications and had very poor QC. Turns out that gray market sellers were buying batches of the real product that failed QC and just reselling them as though they were fine, and they ended up making their way back into the distribution network.
In the end the conclusion was that we’re all kind of fucked until retailers start being way more strict about their supply chains, which they are disincentivized to do, because the current system gives them plausible deniability on things like child labor.
Who is “they”?
You have to test the product to know it’s counterfeit. Then you have to return it. Then you have to buy it again and, what? Hope that what they have stocked is from a different batch? I don’t think this is any different between Amazon and other retailers
The counterfeiters buy legit products and return their cheapo fakes through fake buyer accounts. So for the price of manufactoring the counterfeit products they’ve purchased the real thing.
They then sell the authentic products through other channels and appear to be supplying authentic, quality products affordably to buyers and marketplaces while at the same time poisoning the legitimate market.
Even if you don’t, there is basically no way to tell you’ve got a legit authentic product that passed QC until you test it yourself.
The supply chains that give retailers plausible deniability wrt child labor also by their nature allow counterfeits.
You have to get your electronics from somewhere, retailers’ supply chain has a helluva lot more quality control than Amazon. Just because you can’t get to 100% doesn’t mean you shouldn’t strive for, well, anything more than the worst chances anyone can offer.
I imagine that “sold by Amazon” has about the same supply chain reliability as big box retailers. On Amazon you do gotta check your seller rating if you’re not buying prime, but that’s not harder than driving to best buy, and big box retailer online stores have the same problem when they’re the storefront for 3rd parties (as many are, trying to emulate Amazon).
On Amazon, reviews can be faked, but at least it has reviews.
You’re wrong. Amazon mixes inventory between themselves and any other seller that’s fulfilled by Amazon, meaning if one random seller has fake product, then even the “sold by Amazon” option can send you that other seller’s fake product. And vice versa, of course.
USB-A male to USB-A male is not in any USB standard (not entirely true, but compliant cables are very rare and don’t connect voltage), and if you plug it into a device it’s not meant for, the behavior is entirely unspecified. It will probably do nothing. But it might fry your USB controller that is not expecting to receive voltage.
USB-C to USB-C is in the spec, and if you plug in two host devices, they won’t hurt each other. You can actually charge a host device over USB-C, unlike USB-A.
That’s why it isn’t ok. It’s not the same thing, it’s not in the standard, and it can even be dangerous (to the device).
The USB spec requires one master and one slave device, which is usually decided by which type of connector each side has. USB OTG can bypass that restriction, but I’ve only ever seen it done with micro USB or type C.
I actually have one of the USB A cables above from an old android tablet that had 2 full USB A ports on the side.
One was always a slave/device port while the other actually had a physical switch to change from Host to Device.
That used to be my mobile media tablet. I could cast wirelessly or steam directly from the mini HDMI port. Such an awesome device for how cheap it was.
I actually found an A to A cable in my Big Box of Cables I Might Need One Day™ when trying to flash my Gotek floppy emulator with FlashFloppy firmware.
In the long, long ago, we used to use USB-A to A cables to transfer customers’ Mac OS X user profiles when they would buy a new Mac. Also worked with Target Disk Mode, way back when.
Ha, old man brain glitching there. The A to A cable we used for file migration, but we had to stick an A to C adapter on one end to use TDM on some machines (had to be USB 3 rated, I think). It was around 2016, if I remember correctly? It honestly didn’t come up that often.
I bought a charging pad once that had a USB c connector but none of the 40 USB power adapters I have have one so I returned it. IDK wtf they were thinking. Just make the wall end an A connector like everyone else has been doing for a decade.
I had to look up, USB PD does work with a USB A port.
That being said, I personally want to get to a single type of cable so any I get can be spares for anything I have, so I like USB c to be all around.
That ALSO being said, I doubt I will ever get to all USB C.
Side note, USB PD is awesome because I know it can do up to 240w. (Last I knew.) That is 48v at 5a, so I am not sure what they can do to squeeze out more wattage.
USB PD is not specced for USB-A which is limited to 5V 2.4A. They had Quick Charge back in the day that got a little bit higher power using 9V but all the modern higher voltage high current PD stuff uses USB-C. The USB-A cables aren’t specced to be running 5A or more that PD uses.
Oh no the wires are a mess. Usb3 cables have extra wires and pins for super-speed. IIRC usb-c has said extra pins for usb configuration like pd or displayport alt mode. The wires can also be different. Some can carry more current, most cables are insufficient for really high data rates…
USB began as a protocol where one side (USB-A) takes the leading role and the other (USB-B) the following role . this was mandated by hardware with differently shaped plugs and ports . this made sense for the time as USB was ment to connect computers to peripherals .
however some devices don’t fit this binary that well : one might want to connect their phone to their computer to pull data off it , but they also might want to connect a keyboard to it , with the small form factor not allowing for both a USB-A and USB-B port. the solution was USB On-The-Go : USB Mini-A/B/AB and USB Micro-A/B/AB connectors have an additional pin which allows both modes of operations
with USB-C , aside from adding more pins and making the connector rotationally symmetric , a very similar yet differently named feature was included , since USB-C - USB-C connections were planed for
so yeah USB-A to USB-A connections are explicitly not allowed , for a similar reason as you only see CEE 7 (fine , or the objectively worse NEMA) plugs on both ends of a cable only in joke made cables . USB-C has additional hardware to support both sides using USB-C which USB-A , neither in the original or 3.0 revision , has .
edit : to clarify , I believe it does , using the CC1 & CC2 pins which are also used for other things , but I don’t know anything about USB protocol side , I should learn about it haha
I think since it’s now a software implementation, USB-C supports many such modes, some of which are slave-master as is needed, but others such as various display modes, and power modes.
please don’t use that term, every time i see it i immediately verge on orgasming. you’ve already made me ruin 2 undergarments today. i have a serious bdsm kink and this is not funny.
They make A-to-A cables with a bit of file transfer software integrated into the cord. Useful for transferring big files between two PCs without setting up a network.
Back then as a kid I always wondered that how the hell would Windows Commander/Total Commander’s Connection between two PC with USB cable feature work and what cable would it need… (never saw A to A cables at that point)
The help file was about some special cable, but the photo had an A-A cable on it with some extra circuits in a plastic casing near the connectors. I was amazed and sad at the same time, since I would never had such a cable, and I really wanted to try hook up two PCs with USB, that just sounded nasty for some reason 😅
you can use them to transfer files between PCs without the need for a flash/thumb-drive I also have a few flashlights that charge in and out through a USB-A
Didn’t USB A and USB B use a master-slave relationship in which the male would (generally) always be the slave, whereas USB C uses agreement and discussion to decide the master and slave roles regardless of connector gender.
Please do correct me if I’m wrong. Also, do we say “agent” now instead of “slave”, or what is the new term?
Both ends of a USB cable are generally male (unless you’re talking about an extender). Generally the type B end (in mini, micro, or full configuration) would be the client though I have seen a couple of clients use Mini or Micro A.
Yeah we’ve been going by primary-secondary where I am for the just 6 to 7 years now but I don’t think a universally agreed replacement for the terms exists yet.
I think the biggest problem I see with A to A is: who’s delivering power, and who’s receiving it? Maybe if you use it only with the device it came with then it’ll be fine, but if anyone tries to just hook up that cable to two random computers, it might actually cause a short circuit and fry something.
Whereas Type-C was explicitly made to handle such situations.
Or a shorter reason: Type-C cable is allowed by the spec while Type-A is not.
I’ve actually used this to my advantage. I bought some cheap speaker/light combos which basically made the lights dance to the music. The only power connector was a wire that comes straight out of the device and into an outlet. But it did have a USB port for loading music from a USB stick. So naturally I plugged one side of a USB A into the port and the other side into a power bank and it just straight up worked.
It makes sense, if I remember correctly the older USB cable (i.e. everything before Type-C) are passive, so as long as the pins are wired symmetrically it wouldn’t matter which side is which. But whoever made your keyboard really blundered, there is no reason in the world why anyone would do this. There’s so many options: the B connector, mini USB, micro USB. All would make sense to put in the keyboard. A just doesn’t.
Let me guess: you got it from an ultra cheap online store? AliExpress/Wish/Temu?
Ooh, I did guess wrong! That is an interesting specimen.
My suspicion is that they are experts in ergonomics, not in electrical engineering, so they probably aren’t aware of how silly and possibly dangerous what they did is. Or perhaps they simply don’t care because “it gets the job done”, standards and specifications be damned.
Anyway, in this case I’m happy to be proven wrong. Thanks.
Most cheap usb switchers will use them on the computer-switch side. I have a few models that I was testing out so I have a small pile of these. They’re great for cutting in half and using as a small usb power supply cable to breadboard projects, along with the horde of 5w Apple chargers I have in a bin.
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USB-A requires three attempts to connect, C only one.
I have a switch controller that requires two plug ins to work
Six since it has A at both ends.
There is no USB-B here and it is pretty hard to get the wrong direction anyway.
Sorry, I meant for a “normal” A to B cord lol.
I absolutely have some Type C cables that only work one way because there’s no enforced standards and the manufacturer will wire them however is cheap, throw on another company’s logo, and sell it to Amazom.
I have never seen this.
There is absolutely a certification process, but playing legal whack-a-mole with fly-by-night counterfeiters is difficult.
This is why buying reputable brands from reputable sellers is important.
But even then, I remember years ago I read an article about major retailers selling counterfeit brand name SD cards that didn’t meet the labeled performance specifications and had very poor QC. Turns out that gray market sellers were buying batches of the real product that failed QC and just reselling them as though they were fine, and they ended up making their way back into the distribution network.
In the end the conclusion was that we’re all kind of fucked until retailers start being way more strict about their supply chains, which they are disincentivized to do, because the current system gives them plausible deniability on things like child labor.
They’ll also buy the real product, return the counterfeit product, then sell the real one.
Who is “they”?
You have to test the product to know it’s counterfeit. Then you have to return it. Then you have to buy it again and, what? Hope that what they have stocked is from a different batch? I don’t think this is any different between Amazon and other retailers
The counterfeiters buy legit products and return their cheapo fakes through fake buyer accounts. So for the price of manufactoring the counterfeit products they’ve purchased the real thing.
They then sell the authentic products through other channels and appear to be supplying authentic, quality products affordably to buyers and marketplaces while at the same time poisoning the legitimate market.
It’s essentially counterfeit laundering.
Don’t buy electronics through amazon. This is precisely why.
Even if you don’t, there is basically no way to tell you’ve got a legit authentic product that passed QC until you test it yourself. The supply chains that give retailers plausible deniability wrt child labor also by their nature allow counterfeits.
You have to get your electronics from somewhere, retailers’ supply chain has a helluva lot more quality control than Amazon. Just because you can’t get to 100% doesn’t mean you shouldn’t strive for, well, anything more than the worst chances anyone can offer.
I imagine that “sold by Amazon” has about the same supply chain reliability as big box retailers. On Amazon you do gotta check your seller rating if you’re not buying prime, but that’s not harder than driving to best buy, and big box retailer online stores have the same problem when they’re the storefront for 3rd parties (as many are, trying to emulate Amazon).
On Amazon, reviews can be faked, but at least it has reviews.
You’re wrong. Amazon mixes inventory between themselves and any other seller that’s fulfilled by Amazon, meaning if one random seller has fake product, then even the “sold by Amazon” option can send you that other seller’s fake product. And vice versa, of course.
Ooph yeah that seems pretty bad. What is even the purpose of seller rating with FBA if the inventories are mixed?
When I need something for work I have a company account.
Gross. I haven’t run into that.
USB-A male to USB-A male is not in any USB standard (not entirely true, but compliant cables are very rare and don’t connect voltage), and if you plug it into a device it’s not meant for, the behavior is entirely unspecified. It will probably do nothing. But it might fry your USB controller that is not expecting to receive voltage.
USB-C to USB-C is in the spec, and if you plug in two host devices, they won’t hurt each other. You can actually charge a host device over USB-C, unlike USB-A.
That’s why it isn’t ok. It’s not the same thing, it’s not in the standard, and it can even be dangerous (to the device).
I think the argument that A-A should be in the spec.
But usb-c is just so much better all around.
The USB spec requires one master and one slave device, which is usually decided by which type of connector each side has. USB OTG can bypass that restriction, but I’ve only ever seen it done with micro USB or type C.
I actually have one of the USB A cables above from an old android tablet that had 2 full USB A ports on the side.
One was always a slave/device port while the other actually had a physical switch to change from Host to Device.
That used to be my mobile media tablet. I could cast wirelessly or steam directly from the mini HDMI port. Such an awesome device for how cheap it was.
I actually found an A to A cable in my Big Box of Cables I Might Need One Day™ when trying to flash my Gotek floppy emulator with FlashFloppy firmware.
I’m not sure what the point is here. C is symmetrical and has absolutely no downsides, so yes, it’s objectively better.
In the long, long ago, we used to use USB-A to A cables to transfer customers’ Mac OS X user profiles when they would buy a new Mac. Also worked with Target Disk Mode, way back when.
I only remember doing this with FireWire. Which model supported target disk mode over USB-A?
Ha, old man brain glitching there. The A to A cable we used for file migration, but we had to stick an A to C adapter on one end to use TDM on some machines (had to be USB 3 rated, I think). It was around 2016, if I remember correctly? It honestly didn’t come up that often.
Apple didn’t use FireWire for that?
They did, but the first run of MacBooks we got that didn’t have Firewire would let you use USB. But we needed an A to C adapter to make that work.
Who are these people?
https://birb.site/@minego/112933164050308017
That’s just one internet rando.
The internet rando that caused me to make this meme
Was gonna ask, never heard of anyone.
I bought a charging pad once that had a USB c connector but none of the 40 USB power adapters I have have one so I returned it. IDK wtf they were thinking. Just make the wall end an A connector like everyone else has been doing for a decade.
USB-C can deliver more power which is why they’ve been appearing more and more on charging bricks.
I had to look up, USB PD does work with a USB A port.
That being said, I personally want to get to a single type of cable so any I get can be spares for anything I have, so I like USB c to be all around.
That ALSO being said, I doubt I will ever get to all USB C.
Side note, USB PD is awesome because I know it can do up to 240w. (Last I knew.) That is 48v at 5a, so I am not sure what they can do to squeeze out more wattage.
USB PD is not specced for USB-A which is limited to 5V 2.4A. They had Quick Charge back in the day that got a little bit higher power using 9V but all the modern higher voltage high current PD stuff uses USB-C. The USB-A cables aren’t specced to be running 5A or more that PD uses.
https://www.usb.org/usb-charger-pd
C-C carries more power than A-C?
USB-PD is only specified for USB-C. I think they use an extra channel for this configuration, so it’s not possible to use PD over A plugs.
There were competing standards like Qualcom quick charge. AFAIK they never went above 20-ish watts on USB-A, while PD is specced at up to 240W.
Interesting. I always figured the wires inside were all the same.
Oh no the wires are a mess. Usb3 cables have extra wires and pins for super-speed. IIRC usb-c has said extra pins for usb configuration like pd or displayport alt mode. The wires can also be different. Some can carry more current, most cables are insufficient for really high data rates…
Yes, USB-A is only spec’ed for 5v 2.4a, so it will end up throttling the USB-C end which has higher power delivery specs.
actually they would be correct :
USB began as a protocol where one side (USB-A) takes the leading role and the other (USB-B) the following role . this was mandated by hardware with differently shaped plugs and ports . this made sense for the time as USB was ment to connect computers to peripherals .
however some devices don’t fit this binary that well : one might want to connect their phone to their computer to pull data off it , but they also might want to connect a keyboard to it , with the small form factor not allowing for both a USB-A and USB-B port. the solution was USB On-The-Go : USB Mini-A/B/AB and USB Micro-A/B/AB connectors have an additional pin which allows both modes of operations
with USB-C , aside from adding more pins and making the connector rotationally symmetric , a very similar yet differently named feature was included , since USB-C - USB-C connections were planed for
so yeah USB-A to USB-A connections are explicitly not allowed , for a similar reason as you only see CEE 7 (fine , or the objectively worse NEMA) plugs on both ends of a cable only in joke made cables . USB-C has additional hardware to support both sides using USB-C which USB-A , neither in the original or 3.0 revision , has .
With USB-C isn’t there still a slave-master dynamic that is now negotiated via software rather than hardware?
it seems like it , but I have no idea !
edit : to clarify , I believe it does , using the CC1 & CC2 pins which are also used for other things , but I don’t know anything about USB protocol side , I should learn about it haha
I think since it’s now a software implementation, USB-C supports many such modes, some of which are slave-master as is needed, but others such as various display modes, and power modes.
please don’t use that term, every time i see it i immediately verge on orgasming. you’ve already made me ruin 2 undergarments today. i have a serious bdsm kink and this is not funny.
sorry, I didn’t mean trigger you. I’ll refer to it as a daddy-pig duo instead
I am a stupid end user. But I’ve never found an instance where I needed male to male cords.
You’ve never used HDMI?
My usb-b monitor stands alone
Chargers are now female. So you need m2m to charge your phone
In general? Off the top of my head I remember these male to male cables.
What’s a common thing that would require the use of USB A on both ends?
nothing worthwhile, as it’s not allowed (for a good reason)
The only place i ever saw it was on those cooling padas for laptops
it was common amongst digital cameras in the early 2000’s.
and maybe you could somehow link up two computers as well…? tho that could have been some specialized cables
They make A-to-A cables with a bit of file transfer software integrated into the cord. Useful for transferring big files between two PCs without setting up a network.
Back then as a kid I always wondered that how the hell would Windows Commander/Total Commander’s Connection between two PC with USB cable feature work and what cable would it need… (never saw A to A cables at that point)
The help file was about some special cable, but the photo had an A-A cable on it with some extra circuits in a plastic casing near the connectors. I was amazed and sad at the same time, since I would never had such a cable, and I really wanted to try hook up two PCs with USB, that just sounded nasty for some reason 😅
I actually have several USB-A to USB-A cables.
Why?
Hub switches, for one. Power is another (usb a is easier to solder on by hand, as well as cheaper)
For the glory of Satan, of course!
you can use them to transfer files between PCs without the need for a flash/thumb-drive I also have a few flashlights that charge in and out through a USB-A
Transferring files that way actually seems really useful, I did not think of that
Huh, I’m not sure they are comparable.
Didn’t USB A and USB B use a master-slave relationship in which the male would (generally) always be the slave, whereas USB C uses agreement and discussion to decide the master and slave roles regardless of connector gender.
Please do correct me if I’m wrong. Also, do we say “agent” now instead of “slave”, or what is the new term?
Both ends of a USB cable are generally male (unless you’re talking about an extender). Generally the type B end (in mini, micro, or full configuration) would be the client though I have seen a couple of clients use Mini or Micro A.
Yeah we’ve been going by primary-secondary where I am for the just 6 to 7 years now but I don’t think a universally agreed replacement for the terms exists yet.
master/slave could be primary/secondary, primary/subordinate or principle/agent, so you’re correct on that replacement.
I personally am a big fan of “Mantrap” becoming an “Access Control Vestibule” mostly because it’s fun to say.
I like controller/peripheral, which is the most descriptive in my opinion. That’s what’s commonly used for SPI.
I’ve been using parent/child, I guess that’s not always correct?
I think reusing server/client naming for USB connectivity instead of master/slave would fit it
I believe the common terms now are “domme” and “sub”
I’m going to refer to myself as USB-B from now on
I can’t tell if this is real life or sarcasm…
Did I really miss the memo on this one?
No that’s the lingo the professionals use these days
I can confirm, I’m called sub at work
Ah yeah, I’ve heard that offices are rolling out a new role of office cumdump. Glad to hear from someone already in the role
journalctl --cumdumpIn the usb world its “host” and “device”, not “master” and “slave”.
But yes you are right
I think the biggest problem I see with A to A is: who’s delivering power, and who’s receiving it? Maybe if you use it only with the device it came with then it’ll be fine, but if anyone tries to just hook up that cable to two random computers, it might actually cause a short circuit and fry something.
Whereas Type-C was explicitly made to handle such situations.
Or a shorter reason: Type-C cable is allowed by the spec while Type-A is not.
I’ve actually used this to my advantage. I bought some cheap speaker/light combos which basically made the lights dance to the music. The only power connector was a wire that comes straight out of the device and into an outlet. But it did have a USB port for loading music from a USB stick. So naturally I plugged one side of a USB A into the port and the other side into a power bank and it just straight up worked.
Hrm. I have a keyboard that requires an A to A cable and I think it works with the cable any way around…
Might be wrong.
It makes sense, if I remember correctly the older USB cable (i.e. everything before Type-C) are passive, so as long as the pins are wired symmetrically it wouldn’t matter which side is which. But whoever made your keyboard really blundered, there is no reason in the world why anyone would do this. There’s so many options: the B connector, mini USB, micro USB. All would make sense to put in the keyboard. A just doesn’t.
Let me guess: you got it from an ultra cheap online store? AliExpress/Wish/Temu?
You guessed wrong.
https://www.maltron.com/store/p10/Maltron_L90_dual_hand_fully_ergonomic_(3D)_keyboard_-_UK_English.html
It’s a ridiculously expensive and “home made” looking, but it saved my hands from OCD.
Ooh, I did guess wrong! That is an interesting specimen.
My suspicion is that they are experts in ergonomics, not in electrical engineering, so they probably aren’t aware of how silly and possibly dangerous what they did is. Or perhaps they simply don’t care because “it gets the job done”, standards and specifications be damned.
Anyway, in this case I’m happy to be proven wrong. Thanks.
I known they outsourced the firmware development, so who knows, maybe the electronics hardware too.
Type C sounds like a healthy relationship.
I have a healthy relationship with my Master uwu
Mechanics are still trying to figure that out with the “master cylinder” and “slave cylinder”
I’ve never seen a USB-A to A cable in the wild, except recently, where I finally unpacked my SATA/IDE USB adapter from Ugreen.
I’ve had old Ugreen devices with a similar setup. Notably a KVM that fried my keyboard bc they failed to follow USB spec.
A-to-A cables are, in general, a hardware design smell. It’s best to avoid devices that don’t care enough to follow the spec.
My USB KVM switch uses them
They used to be moderately common in the before times, like 2.5 inch IDE HDD times.
For added horror those often where Y cables, too.
They are commonly used with USB keystone connectors. For some reason most of them have A connectors on both sides.
Most cheap usb switchers will use them on the computer-switch side. I have a few models that I was testing out so I have a small pile of these. They’re great for cutting in half and using as a small usb power supply cable to breadboard projects, along with the horde of 5w Apple chargers I have in a bin.