… This seems like standard GUI stuff. The interface component defined by some markup, with a hook to some programmatic behavior, and perhaps a corresponding resource ID
Can confirm. I worked as a contract program manager for Microsoft with O365, Azure Gloval Ecosystrm, and yes, the dreaded Windows team. I wakk out out my last two Microsoft jobs in the middle of a shift. I would do it again.
I’ve heard an ex microsoft employee said in a blog once that the windows team has no seniors. Anyone who has worked there for one or two years has left for better employers. Nobody knows how to refactor or maintain old codebases, so instead, they just write new things on top of the old things. The windows kernel has hardly changed since XP.
Windows NNT when? Surely from a business/competition perspective they can’t let Linux get that many years ahead of them in terms of kernel optimisations?
Right? Like my dude, bare minimum at least write down those steps in a text document so you can reference it the next time you have to add something. Bonus points for putting it on some shared internal wiki or whatever Microsoft uses.
I don’t think anybody gets paid enough to write that down. In fact, they might get punished for wasting company time.
They could open source it and people would automatically fix these things. Who knows.
Maybe we’ve been misunderstanding what Closed Source really is this whole time?
It’s a codex holding back “eldritch cognitohazard” horrors that the technopriests of Microsoft have captured and tamed into an operating system. Releasing the source would release the beasts into our reality, much like the plot of John Carpenters In the Mouth of Madness.
Well, figured out one good reason for closed source, I guess. Let’s not solve this LeMarchand’s Box.
pretty much every windows GUI framework is trash or a pain in the ass to deal with except for Avalonia (my beloved), but it’s more cross platform.
I’m not sure if this is 100% real but it very well could be. although imo makes me think of skill issue (not because the system makes sense, but these problems don’t really seem like problems to me, just minor set backs)
well, no. everything is a god damn web app because everything runs browsers.
so why write native (device) applications if the device can run a browser ? just write code for the browser, which also runs on desktop. now you have a cross platform app without needing 5 different teams
Yep, I was shocked to see that there is no defacto 1st party framework and during my time searching online I found lots of “use x, use y, no y is dead and none uses it, no x is terrible” which is how I found Avalonia.
I still don’t think there’s a solid Windows gui framework, but I haven’t looked in years.
I don’t think this is legit because even as I was reading it, I was expecting it to sound a lot worse than it ended up sounding. Like, it didn’t sound great or anything, but it didn’t sound nearly as fucked up as I would expect firsthand descriptions of piled-on legacy code to sound after almost 50 fucking years.
Sounds like classic junior engineer shit. “Let’s do a big rewrite!” Followed by everything going to shit because they don’t how to create good maintainable software architecture and for whatever reason there weren’t enough senior engineers around to show them the way.
Seriously, it doesn’t sound great, but it sounds about what you might expect wiring up a new UI widget in WPF or whatever the latest thing for native Windows is. Sounds like what would happen if you started developing a Windows app using the Microsoft scaffolding and never applied any kind of software architecture beyond that and it just grew and grew into a big ball of mud. Exactly what I would expect given the quality of so many of their frameworks, and I say that as a professional dotnet software engineer.
True, that is surprising and makes everything worse. It’s probably controlled by a setting that none of those engineers knows how to change, based on the lack of knowledge described here.
My guess is that a stack trace is being generated, but something further down the chain is consuming it, realizes there’s an error, and just throws -1 instead of the stack trace itself.
Complicated code is when 700 projects are all entangled and when you add a 3D bar for measuring purposes (it was just a bar like 100 nanometers long so you could get a feel for size in 3D scans, in the 3D viewer), the up (not the down) mouse scroll stopped working for sliders in all the 2D GUIs…
That is crappy code and I was there when we got that bug (Avizo software).
What cracked me up was all that copying blocks of code “because no one knows how anything works”.
That reeks of novices copying code without bothering to read it well, and since this work method is horrendous, no one stays enough to stablish a proper knowledge base.
It’s a bit sad, but not that surprising, that if this is true then Microsoft is clearly not tasking their most experienced engineers on the control panel (you know, that part of the OS who’s function is to allow you to tweak all the rest of the OS?).
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At least control panel is better than “Settings” trying to find shit in that is hell.
Which control panel? There’s like 20 of them and a new worse one gets added every other year.
I have no way of verifying this is real, but I wholeheartedly believe it.
So that’s why they shipped like every past systems’ control windows with every new version. Not for people’s convenience. Because of spaghett
Nobody toucha my spaghett
… This seems like standard GUI stuff. The interface component defined by some markup, with a hook to some programmatic behavior, and perhaps a corresponding resource ID
Can confirm. I worked as a contract program manager for Microsoft with O365, Azure Gloval Ecosystrm, and yes, the dreaded Windows team. I wakk out out my last two Microsoft jobs in the middle of a shift. I would do it again.
I wanna believe that this is fake.
But I expect it is not.
I’m now wondering if microsoft still even has the legacy control panel code.
OH MY F… GOD! I knew it is witchcraft but I didn’t knew that is is so awful!
I’ve heard an ex microsoft employee said in a blog once that the windows team has no seniors. Anyone who has worked there for one or two years has left for better employers. Nobody knows how to refactor or maintain old codebases, so instead, they just write new things on top of the old things. The windows kernel has hardly changed since XP.
Windows NNT when? Surely from a business/competition perspective they can’t let Linux get that many years ahead of them in terms of kernel optimisations?
thats what happens when short term profit is king I guess
This sounds 100% credible, based on the outcomes we can see
This makes sense, most of that explanation in the screenshot reeks of novices working with something they don’t understand.
Copying and pasting a current example and changing the names… yep.
Instead of making it worse you could extract it to a new file. Make an interface. Write a unit test. Anything.
The guy wonders why the file is 15k lines long and then describes exactly why.
Right? Like my dude, bare minimum at least write down those steps in a text document so you can reference it the next time you have to add something. Bonus points for putting it on some shared internal wiki or whatever Microsoft uses.
Or write a tool that can do all these steps for you, reliably!
I don’t think anybody gets paid enough to write that down. In fact, they might get punished for wasting company time. They could open source it and people would automatically fix these things. Who knows.
…maybe it’s better that the Windows source code remain closed.
At the same time, I’d love to see the developers of the world glimpse at that eldritch cognitohazard and collectively go insane.
Maybe we’ve been misunderstanding what Closed Source really is this whole time?
It’s a codex holding back “eldritch cognitohazard” horrors that the technopriests of Microsoft have captured and tamed into an operating system. Releasing the source would release the beasts into our reality, much like the plot of John Carpenters In the Mouth of Madness.
Well, figured out one good reason for closed source, I guess. Let’s not solve this LeMarchand’s Box.
At least modern hardware runs the spaghetti code much better than Windows XP used to run.
i view it less as spaghetti and more as a rat king
The “True Facts About Microsoft” and Zefrank reference got me :D
pretty much every windows GUI framework is trash or a pain in the ass to deal with except for Avalonia (my beloved), but it’s more cross platform.
I’m not sure if this is 100% real but it very well could be. although imo makes me think of skill issue (not because the system makes sense, but these problems don’t really seem like problems to me, just minor set backs)
This is why everything is a goddamn web app now.
well, no. everything is a god damn web app because everything runs browsers.
so why write native (device) applications if the device can run a browser ? just write code for the browser, which also runs on desktop. now you have a cross platform app without needing 5 different teams
I haven’t done much with UI in general, but the one time I thought of making some UI stuff in windows I gave up.
Even modifying an existing .net program someone else made for a feature I wanted was a nightmare.
Yep, I was shocked to see that there is no defacto 1st party framework and during my time searching online I found lots of “use x, use y, no y is dead and none uses it, no x is terrible” which is how I found Avalonia.
I still don’t think there’s a solid Windows gui framework, but I haven’t looked in years.
I don’t think this is legit because even as I was reading it, I was expecting it to sound a lot worse than it ended up sounding. Like, it didn’t sound great or anything, but it didn’t sound nearly as fucked up as I would expect firsthand descriptions of piled-on legacy code to sound after almost 50 fucking years.
But did you read the last line? This isn’t classic control panel, this is the new control panel.
Sounds like classic junior engineer shit. “Let’s do a big rewrite!” Followed by everything going to shit because they don’t how to create good maintainable software architecture and for whatever reason there weren’t enough senior engineers around to show them the way.
Same shit trying to implement with systems on the backend older than a lot of people using them today I’d imagine
Seriously, it doesn’t sound great, but it sounds about what you might expect wiring up a new UI widget in WPF or whatever the latest thing for native Windows is. Sounds like what would happen if you started developing a Windows app using the Microsoft scaffolding and never applied any kind of software architecture beyond that and it just grew and grew into a big ball of mud. Exactly what I would expect given the quality of so many of their frameworks, and I say that as a professional dotnet software engineer.
The complete lack of error reporting in the compiler is a surprise though.
True, that is surprising and makes everything worse. It’s probably controlled by a setting that none of those engineers knows how to change, based on the lack of knowledge described here.
My guess is that a stack trace is being generated, but something further down the chain is consuming it, realizes there’s an error, and just throws -1 instead of the stack trace itself.
Something like
Yeah this is classic legacy code.
Complicated code is when 700 projects are all entangled and when you add a 3D bar for measuring purposes (it was just a bar like 100 nanometers long so you could get a feel for size in 3D scans, in the 3D viewer), the up (not the down) mouse scroll stopped working for sliders in all the 2D GUIs…
That is crappy code and I was there when we got that bug (Avizo software).
W H A T
And “the specific resource ID” is almost certainly for localization of the text
What cracked me up was all that copying blocks of code “because no one knows how anything works”.
That reeks of novices copying code without bothering to read it well, and since this work method is horrendous, no one stays enough to stablish a proper knowledge base.
It’s a bit sad, but not that surprising, that if this is true then Microsoft is clearly not tasking their most experienced engineers on the control panel (you know, that part of the OS who’s function is to allow you to tweak all the rest of the OS?).
Yea, this doesn’t sound horrible for what it is. Plenty of Linux systems are this bad.
Plenty of UI applications* are this bad
and people complain about wayland.