Terrorists and Religious zealots (a Venn diagram which is nearly a perfect, single circle) will never recognize basic humanity, because power and control are more important than any human life. To expect peace in a land claimed as sacred by multiple groups is simply guaranteeing unending violence.
For decades terrorism was primarily a tool of secular political organizations like the PLO and IRA. Combining terrorism with religious zealotry is a more recent phenomenon.
I wouldn’t say it was exactly paradise but many jews fled to the ottoman empire to avoid european prosecution. The region was centralised or more autonomous depending on the era I think
Indeed. A relatively lightly administered area which was predominantly (3/4) Muslim. Then Britain took it over following WW1 and said “The Zionists supported us during the war so we’re going to carve out a Jewish homeland in this space where they say they used to live a couple millenia ago and we’re going to pretty much ignore that there’s someone already living there.”
Now you have people displaced who felt their homeland was taken and people transplanted who believe their homeland is due them and the most extreme factions have guns and bombs to argue about it. There is no solution where Israel remains and stays at peace with it’s neighbors, some of whom were displaced to make space or Israel.
It saddens me that this is the case. My great grand-parents were Jewish and fled the pogroms in western Russia to come to the US. Zionists are a stain on our religion.
Probably because the Ottoman empire would just crush everyone’s cock with a rock if they so much as started anything. I highly doubt anyone around there voted for the Ottoman empire to occupy their lands and take their resources, haha.
Generally, strongman rule makes things pretty peaceful. Vlad the impaler had a low crime rule, but he also impaled 20,000 enemy troops in a “Forest of the imapaled” and also impaled any criminals, which somehow kept crime remarkably low. But it wasn’t exactly a happy rule, and people cheered when he was eventually ambushed, beheaded, and (fittingly) impaled on the walls above Constantinople…ironically by Mehmed II, ruler of the Ottoman empire. xD
He fought the Ottoman empire’s encroach his entire life and ended up getting ambushed and dying stupidly. But he went down in legend for being crazy hardcore (and his wife, queen Justinia too, who was absolutely mental as well, iirc)
Religious conflict has only taken hold in the Middle East because SOME PEOPLE overthrew all of the (more) secular left-wing governments and replaced them with right-wing theocratic regimes.
Ending apartheid, giving the common everyday civilian a future they can build toward, hope for, and participate in. Give people no hope, and they will lash out.
Having a secular government in the region, not a theocratic one, would go a long way to maintaining equality and joint prosperity.
Forever war. Back in the day, the stronger side would just kill everyone in a march to the sea, salt the earth, and nothing would grow there for 300 years until humans finally scraped the dirt and made a small community again. It’s been happening over every religious war, every empire, and every tribe for all time.
Now, we don’t do that. But that means bad blood and prolonged conflict essentially forever, in a long simmering he said/she said involving beheadings and rockets. Best thing we can hope for is either a Korea situation, or some sort of “we’ll make this area into a national park where everyone can visit”, but neither side wants to live anywhere else, and hell will freeze over before all the Palestinians or Israelis are welcomed into the neighboring countries with open arms, lol.
My last bit of hope died when I learned that Hamas executed one of their generals on the rumor that he might have had sex with a guy. The fact that they stripped someone of their 1,000 person command, whipped him, forced him to not sleep, and then shot him three times over something so trivial is a really, reallllly bad sign for any hint of a two state solution. Or worse, cohabitation in a host country. They hate each other to an extreme I didn’t think was possible.
I’m pretty sure the both sides take is being lifted directly from the US politics shit show and is probably an early fall back position to diffuse argument and lessen culpability in the aftermath of war crimes. I’m with you though, there’s a lot of crocks in relatively proximity.
The big thing is the Hamas attack wasnt the start of all this. It wasnt Israel minding their own business and Hamas invading for the glory of Islam. The warning cries of a humanitarian crisis were going off long before this recent war, from international humanitarian agencies like Unicef. Gaza was being militarily oppressed by Israel, blocking humanitarian aid, international trade, even denying access to their own waters for fishing.
Civilians were dying off already as a result of Israel, and Israel ignored the warnings, the international community ignored the warnings, and then its shocked pikachus all around as a dying people fight back for survival.
They did a little more than simply “fight back.” They also engaged in widespread and utterly gratuitous acts of violence and torture in ways that can only have been calculated to trigger an overreaction on the part of Israel. They knew exactly what they were doing and what would happen. They obviously don’t give a fuck about their own people.
It all started when Israel showed up on the block and forcibly removed 700000 Palestinians from their homes. There’s no history before that worth discussing as it is archeological records, not history.
Areas that were once 90% Palestinian, suddenly became 90% Jewish. Those people are still fighting to get their homes back, and Israel is continuing to evict Palestinians daily.
The first step to a solution is to recognize that Israel’s goals are to ethnically cleanse the area and then work from there.
Except jews, christians and muslims lived pretty much peacefully together during ottoman rule. The violence worsened when britian controlled palestine and then became a lot worse during the nakba and israeli occupation. It’s not about ‘having clean hands’. It’s about stopping genocide and understanding that occupation and colonialism leads to violent pushback. It always has and always will.
I dont know anything about this.
We’re they all living in the same neighborhoods or we’re they in different neighborhoods in the same city or like different towns in the same Provence?
Just curious how closely bound their networks were. In my home town folks of different faiths are neighbors and mostly go to the same schools and share a government. There’s not much segregation at all. Sure, there’s racism among all groups, but it gets much weaker and much less frequent with each generation.
Oh yeah and fuck the ole British state. Bunch of tossers meddling all about so they can exploit everyone’s resources. Their emancipated colony, all-grown-up now, isn’t much better.
The Ottomans took control of palestine after a war with the Mamluk empire. Palestine hasn’t been and independent country for much of it’s history. It’s still a form of occupation but if you were muslim, christian or jewish you still had access to certain rights (unless you were a slave). Mostly if you were muslim.
Yeah, but siding with Israel here is the logical equivalent of siding with Andrew Jackson and supporting the Indian Removal Act as he committed genocide against the native people.
The power imbalance and how Israel has used it is what makes it imperative that Israel be held accountable by the international community.
I’m glad you bring up the power imbalance. The “both sides have been doing horrible stuff” only works if both sides have equal footing, which they clearly do not. This does not negate the crimes commited by Hamas, but extremism doesn’t come from nowhere and Israël has a responsibility in that.
Mostly it goes back to the 1940’s. There was more history of Zionism beforehand, Jewish settlers gradually coming in to live in the holy land. But after WW2 was the large influx and big push for a Jewish ethnostate. Aaand the people living there already opposed it from the start. And since then it’s been very apparent why, because Israel pushes beyond the borders they were already given from Palestinian land, and militarily occupy the Palestinian land they dont yet claim.
Why do i keep hearing it described like losing a game? Zionists invaded, murdered, and exiled palestinians from their land, that should “win” them nothing but opposition from the international community, same as happening with Russias invasion of Ukraine.
Why do i keep hearing it described like losing a game?
What do you mean by “it”?
I thought we were talking specifically about changes to the borders of what was given to them (irresponsibly?) by the Allies after WW2.
The 6 day war in 1967 was initiated by surrounding Arab countries. Israel won that war and expanded into the Sinai and Gaza (Egypt), Golan Heights (Syria), West Bank and East Jerusalem (Jordan). They didn’t initiate the expansion. They then returned the Sinai to Egypt.
Admittedly after that they did take more without provocation. The chipping away with settlements is happening to this very day.
I just rewatched the above video in order to spell out the details. It is all new to me. Have a look yourself if you are genuinely interested in discussing the conflict. It really is well made and easy to follow (I dunno if there are errors though).
Nothing was ever given to them, only taken. They were living there already. They did not consent to being murdered and evicted from where they lived, and predictably they fought against it. That they lost against a much larger, internationally backed army invading their land doesnt exactly persuade me that they should lose their right to living there.
Who is “them”? I was talking about the land given to Jews by the colonisers: England and France.
The 6 day war had a larger army on the Arab side. I dunno how much financial backing Israel had from USA or how it compared with the backing (if any) by the Arab oil states and I doubt you know or care either.
I am trying to learn here, but you just insist on lazy mud slinging. Blocking you.
They were never given a vote. The UN voted to take away the Palestinians’ land, and the actual people living there weren’t given a single fucking vote in the issue.
1948 - A day before Britain’s retreat, Israel claims all the land
A day later, Arab countries attack Israel in order to “push the Jews into the sea”
Israel wins most of the land, except Gaza and Cisjordania
Jews were given the land
Well… kind of, but not really, not exactly that land, and the result wasn’t truly agreed upon by anyone.
the 6 day war
That’s in 1967. Israel wasn’t “given” any land there, it used a provocation by Egypt in order to claim all of it (and have Egypt give thanks for not claiming all of Sinai too… for now).
Well… kind of, but not really, not exactly that land, and the result wasn’t truly agreed upon by anyone.
They were given the land by UN at the start of the partition. I want discussing whether it was just.
the 6 day war
That’s in 1967.
Yep, just as I said.
Israel wasn’t “given” any land there
Didn’t say it was dune in 1967. It was given by UN straight after WW2. I was being as brief as possible.
It seems we agree on everything except the following. Hopefully you can clarify for me please…
1948 - A day before Britain’s retreat, Israel claims all the land
Not explicitly AFAIK. This is my understanding…
Arabs were not OK with the UN partition but Jews were. Jews therefore understood that would mean Arabs would annul the partition as soon as the Brits exited so they declared independence from the day of the exit but I cannot find any borders mentioned. Then the Arabs really did attack.
Do you know of any borders mentioned by Jews then? Did they state “we want to be observed of the Arab partitions?” Certainly that is how it ended up but was that the plan on Independence Day? Wikipedia is vague.
This issue has nothing to do with Jews. It has to do with Zionism.
Jews have lived there peacefully, yes. They did so without stealing their neighbors land. Its the Zionists that formed Israel and stole ~40% of Palesines land that caused the war.
There have always been Jews opposed to Zionism since the idea was first thought up.
After the Nazi shit and the reluctance of the West to accept refugees I can understand why.
And look at the rise of cookers who think we live on a flat earth run by a cabal of Jewish shape-shifting lizards from the planet Nibiru. I do not think social progress by humanity is inevitable anymore.
After the Nazi shit and the reluctance of the West to accept refugees
Zionism starts in the 1800s, well before the Nazi shit. The 1940’s One Million Plan actually got amended after the Holocaust by stirring up a civil war so more Jews from Arab countries would flee in fear of prosecution in order to meet the Zionist numbers, precisely because “too many” Western countries were accepting (or got forced to accept) Holocaust refugees, who were nowhere as many as previously expected (by the Zionists).
Nazi Germany could really happen again
Not exactly. Genocides have been going on all the time, just the countries and ethnicities have been changing. So you could say it’s been happening all along… while the chance of the same exact combination repeating, is quite low.
I used to resent that Jews had a special word just for them: “antisemitism”. But now I see it might be warranted because although every migrant group gets racist pushback, it is Jews who are the target of crazy conspiracy theorists. It is Jews who are said to secretly run the world.
I am not joking about the shape-shifting lizards from the planet Nibiru. That is from David Icke who says our world leaders are those lizards.
It is thought that he is using it as a dog-whistle for Nazis (to mean Jews). Certainly there is a disproportionate crossover between Nazis and Icke supporters.
Icke also championed the 5G conspiracies, is an anti-vaxxer and thinks the moon is a hollow spaceship used by aliens to spy on us from. I can’t even…
Because Israel will never let them back in if they leave. That is not hypothetical; it happened to thousands of Palestinians during the 6-day war, and their families are still stuck in Egypt, Syria, and Lebanon today.
It’s also because Hamas has its origins in the Muslim Brotherhood which for obvious reasons means that Egypt is very leery of accepting Palestinians from Gaza.
I’m not defending their position, just explaining it; Egypt is basically a military dictatorship at this point and the Muslim Brotherhood is enemy number one for them.
@FaulerFuffi assuming that’s a genuine question there are a bunch of reasons and one is they don’t want to open themselves up to being attacked by Israel.
I do agree the Hamas attack wasn’t the start of this. However tactically it was incredibly silly, honestly what did they think would happen?
They gave Netanyahu, who was finally fumbling at the reigns after almost thirty years aan excuse to execute his wet dreams and all of Israel uniting behind him.
I see no way how they could have thought the attack would benefit their cause.
I dont think people are appreciating the context of Gazans dying off. It wasnt a stable situation that was fine to continue as it was going, imagine youre locked in a room with a lunatic with a knife trying to kill you. Youre not likely to beat the lunatic, but youre gonna try, you dont have any other options.
Waiting didnt work, protests didnt work, pleading with the international community didnt work, they cant leave. Everyone keeps saying they shouldnt have fought back, but what should they have done? Nothing is not available as an option.
I appreciate that and I have equated the current war to the Warsaw ghetto uprising. I’m not an apologist.
However, as Sun Zu said, you must not interrupt your enemy when he’s making a mistake. Netanyahu’s might was failing. Israeli youth was rising up against him.
It’s not like they absolutely needed to do this right now, and they could’ve quite easily understood what the response would be (maybe not the entire extent).
“Rising up” insomuch as they were protesting his proposed changes, not in that they were contemplating actually removing him from power, or even trying to oust/disband/etc Likud.
Don’t you think that, however small, some action must take form?
When I was small there were two conflicts that dividend public opinion and were sure to last centuries, those bring the Israel-Palestine conflict and the Irish one.
I think that disengaging the murder spiral makes things better. Both the resentment of the Israeli youth against their more and more fascist government was an incredibly worthwhile step.
Hamas and Likud alle don’t like any two state proposals, that’s why this is happening.
If I came into your house and drove you by force into the garage, I don’t think you’d want a “2-house solution” that allows you to live there, either.
And no, I don’t think that essentially saying, “why don’t the Palestinians wait around being killed quietly, to see if the youths protesting today will massively change Israel’s trajectory when they get into politics in 20 years?” is a reasonable, measured, or humane stance.
What authority was netanyahu losing? Or are you just referring to there being some chance of him losing an election? Because Gaza did wait and see for several elections. He was just reelected in 2022. So apparently he’s not being voted out.
Sure, but it wasn’t saving any Palestinians lives in the process OR the goal. Most Israelis weren’t opposing Netanyahu because they were against the Israeli genocide of Palestinians, they just didn’t like what he was doing to prevent punishment for his corruption. They wanted to replace him, but it would just be with another genocidal guy.
I don’t know. I remember both Rabin and Sharon, who briefly gave some hope in the nineties. It never materialized but it’s hope I must cling to. Just like the Irish managed to put their para military ways aside.
The sad part of this attack is that that hoe is pushed back even further.
So call me naive or a fool, but I keep hoping for a new generation that distances itself from the spiral of violence. It’s a feint hope, that got even more so due to this new horrible episode.
After closely following the Ukrainian War and learning all the nuances and history in that…I just don’t have the energy or time to do the same about a whole new conflict.
Wait until you hear about Macron’s travel to Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan to sign economic agreements… just like the EU did with Ukraine right before 2014… only this time, next week there’s going to be a new sanctions package against Russia.
Did I mention Kazakhstan borders with both Russia and China, Russia already has a recent history of “helping” a pro-Russia government stay in power by sending in troops to shoot against civilians, and China would love to build a railway through Kazakhstan and Ukraine right to the EU… with just a tiny bit of Russia lying in the way north of Georgia?
If an asteroid fell from space onto Tel Aviv, I’d be on the asteroids side. It’s not about ideology, it’s about removing a fascist ethnostate from the world.
MAS*H was an amazing show and it was moments like that that had a lasting effect on my world view. I did not realize it as a kid watching it, but I do now.
I’ve seen plenty of contrarian tankies who are pro Hamas. Often the same “anti imperialists” who hate the West so much they think supporting Ukraine is bad.
Personally I’m of the opinion that both sides are genocidal and anybody with a clear idea what to do there is lying, but I’ve been banned from !worldnews@lemmy.ml as “genocide denial” for agreeing with Biden that we should be suspicious of the claimed death numbers coming out of Palestine because both sides have a history of lying about violent acts in their conflict.
A problem with Lemmy (and a bigger one with Reddit) is that conversations can include context and nuance, while mods don’t always can or want to take them into account, so you better make each comment stand on its own, or you can get the boot “out of the blue”.
I’m perfectly capable of thinking that they’re both terrorists and freedom fighters.
It’s not just that they “can” be both, it’s more that they “have to” be both.
“Freedom fighter” is a term reserved for the underdog, the one who can’t use sheer military power to terrorize a whole region (like a couple US Carrier Strike Groups with nukes) or some surrounding countries (like a US funded Israeli military with some nukes of their own). Established democracies and recognized states, can use their “military” to terrorize a whole population by just threatening to bomb the living shit out of the civilians, while “freedom fighters” can only terrorize through surprise attacks and extreme brutality… aka, by being “terrorists”.
Bottom line: all “freedom fighters” need to be “terrorists”, otherwise they’d be called “a military”.
somebody who goes to “freedom fighter” as their first noun for them, that’s kind of a red flag.
That’s a bit harsh, what if they understand the two are synonyms? 🤷
Terrorism is a tactic, so no, not all “freedom fighters” are terrorists. There are and have been throughout history many guerrilla groups that don’t use terrorism tactics but that could still be called “freedom fighters.”
Off the top of my head, all I can come up with associated with “freedom fighters”, is using both guerrilla tactics and terrorism to fight against some superior enemy. The next closest thing, are non-terrorist “freedom movements” like Gandhi’s (which comes with a separate can of worms).
I would agree, but there are people here on Lemmy and elsewhere who don’t distinguish between Palestinian people and the Hamas. It’s like a ‘tankie’ versus ‘anti-tankie’ game, ‘us and them’, and nothing in between. If you don’t choose, each side accuses you of being the enemy.
Addition:
Just watched this interview (video + transcript). A journalist tells about his visit of tbe occupied territories in Palestine. At some point he arrives at one of the many checkpoints.
And I was walking to the checkpoint, and an Israeli guard stepped out, probably about the age of my son. And he said to me, “What’s your religion, bro?” And I said, “Well, you know, I’m not really religious.” And he said, “Come on. Stop messing around. What is your religion?” I said, “I’m not playing. I’m not really religious.” And it became clear to me that unless I professed my religion, and the right religion, I wasn’t going to be allowed to walk forward. So, he said, “Well, OK, so what was your parents’ religion?” I said, “Well, they weren’t that religious, either.” He says, “What were your grandparents’ religion?” And I said, “My grandmother was a Christian.” And then he allowed me to pass.
So there, even as you just walk around, you seem to be checked ‘to whom you belong’.
The selective outrage is also very telling. Palestinian civilians killed by indiscriminate bombing? Apoplectic red-faced spittle-flying fury!
Ukrainian civilians or even Syrian civilians killed by the same? Relative silence even though in both cases it was even less provoked. What’s really going on here? And I don’t mean that as a rhetorical question either; I honestly don’t know. I have a theory, but I’m not entirely confident in it just yet.
The problem is very simple. Israel and their neoliberal allies want you to think the only sides are Israel and Hamas. But you and I support the third side, the civilians. You simply have to redefine the argument. You tell them, “I am against Israel. And I’m against Hamas too. I’ve picked my side, and it’s the innocents”.
I actually never picked sides in that conflict. Both sides are nuts, the Hamas are terrorists, the IDF commits war crimes, they are both evil.
I propose putting a wall around the whole area and wait for the noise to stop, either by them getting their acts together, or by having killed each other.
No one ever wants to try it, but I say instead of the US giving Israel money for military aid we instead give Jordan money to host the world’s largest fried chicken festival, everyone loves fried chicken. We get Israel and Palestine empty and we give them all “I ❤️ NY” shirts so no one knows where anyone else is from. While they’re all gone we completely fucking glass the “holy land.” Nuke it all so no one can live there for 200+ years.
Maybe by then the people that exist as Israeli and Palestinians can stop with their religious war bullshit over a plot of land and maybe just get on with living a “good” life.
glass the “holy land.” Nuke it all so no one can live there for 200+ years.
Maybe by then […]
Not long enough.
Conflict in the area has been going on for anywhere between 4000 and 200,000 years (lower paleolithic). Since the invention of writing, people of different origins have been able to transmit their religious claims to the region for thousands of years.
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Terrorists and Religious zealots (a Venn diagram which is nearly a perfect, single circle) will never recognize basic humanity, because power and control are more important than any human life. To expect peace in a land claimed as sacred by multiple groups is simply guaranteeing unending violence.
For decades terrorism was primarily a tool of secular political organizations like the PLO and IRA. Combining terrorism with religious zealotry is a more recent phenomenon.
Brendan Behan quote: The terrorist is the one with the small bomb.
Bibi is in power because of religious zealots (and just under half of Israel hated him for it).
Except literally the hundreds of years those same religions lived peacefully together during ottoman rule…
Was it with an iron fist though? Genuine question because I know zero about that period.
I wouldn’t say it was exactly paradise but many jews fled to the ottoman empire to avoid european prosecution. The region was centralised or more autonomous depending on the era I think
Indeed. A relatively lightly administered area which was predominantly (3/4) Muslim. Then Britain took it over following WW1 and said “The Zionists supported us during the war so we’re going to carve out a Jewish homeland in this space where they say they used to live a couple millenia ago and we’re going to pretty much ignore that there’s someone already living there.”
Now you have people displaced who felt their homeland was taken and people transplanted who believe their homeland is due them and the most extreme factions have guns and bombs to argue about it. There is no solution where Israel remains and stays at peace with it’s neighbors, some of whom were displaced to make space or Israel.
It saddens me that this is the case. My great grand-parents were Jewish and fled the pogroms in western Russia to come to the US. Zionists are a stain on our religion.
Probably because the Ottoman empire would just crush everyone’s cock with a rock if they so much as started anything. I highly doubt anyone around there voted for the Ottoman empire to occupy their lands and take their resources, haha.
Generally, strongman rule makes things pretty peaceful. Vlad the impaler had a low crime rule, but he also impaled 20,000 enemy troops in a “Forest of the imapaled” and also impaled any criminals, which somehow kept crime remarkably low. But it wasn’t exactly a happy rule, and people cheered when he was eventually ambushed, beheaded, and (fittingly) impaled on the walls above Constantinople…ironically by Mehmed II, ruler of the Ottoman empire. xD
He fought the Ottoman empire’s encroach his entire life and ended up getting ambushed and dying stupidly. But he went down in legend for being crazy hardcore (and his wife, queen Justinia too, who was absolutely mental as well, iirc)
Not a fan of the framing here, ‘were’ vs ‘would be’ as if the later is just a hypothetical rather than the reality of civilians in Gaza.
Aside from brainwashing them all into forgetting about their religions, what other solution is there?
Religious conflict has only taken hold in the Middle East because SOME PEOPLE overthrew all of the (more) secular left-wing governments and replaced them with right-wing theocratic regimes.
Ending apartheid, giving the common everyday civilian a future they can build toward, hope for, and participate in. Give people no hope, and they will lash out.
Having a secular government in the region, not a theocratic one, would go a long way to maintaining equality and joint prosperity.
Nothing buys forgiveness like mutual economics.
Forever war. Back in the day, the stronger side would just kill everyone in a march to the sea, salt the earth, and nothing would grow there for 300 years until humans finally scraped the dirt and made a small community again. It’s been happening over every religious war, every empire, and every tribe for all time.
Now, we don’t do that. But that means bad blood and prolonged conflict essentially forever, in a long simmering he said/she said involving beheadings and rockets. Best thing we can hope for is either a Korea situation, or some sort of “we’ll make this area into a national park where everyone can visit”, but neither side wants to live anywhere else, and hell will freeze over before all the Palestinians or Israelis are welcomed into the neighboring countries with open arms, lol.
My last bit of hope died when I learned that Hamas executed one of their generals on the rumor that he might have had sex with a guy. The fact that they stripped someone of their 1,000 person command, whipped him, forced him to not sleep, and then shot him three times over something so trivial is a really, reallllly bad sign for any hint of a two state solution. Or worse, cohabitation in a host country. They hate each other to an extreme I didn’t think was possible.
Other than completely eradicate one side off the face of the earth, I guess nothing.
Israel and Palestine (+Muslim world) hate each others.
Slavoj Zizek gave a compelling speech along these lines. The reaction from the crowd and the heckling are really revealing about how divorced even progressive audiences have become from humanity.
Yeah, I thought the default opinion would be that killing is bad. The pearl-clutching at the idea of not killing, it’s fucked up
Yikes. Tons of neo-lib shit takes in this comment section.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism
Could you elaborate about which economic takes you’d want to criticize in this comment section, or did you mean to use a different term?
New hot take in the rhetoric war: Both Sides
What a crock of shit.
Are you a bot?
No, I’m a disused blender from a Margaritaville. They let me use the computer in the managers office.
Is anyone both siding the invasion of Ukraine?
I find the crock of shit next to the original crock of shit is the narrative that nothing happened before October 7th.
I’m pretty sure the both sides take is being lifted directly from the US politics shit show and is probably an early fall back position to diffuse argument and lessen culpability in the aftermath of war crimes. I’m with you though, there’s a lot of crocks in relatively proximity.
Oh and on Ukraine. No? Well, maybe Alex Jones?
Yea, the whole thing makes a mockery of international law, human rights, and the community of nations.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/2/qa-former-un-official-craig-mokhiber-on-gaza-and-genocide
The big thing is the Hamas attack wasnt the start of all this. It wasnt Israel minding their own business and Hamas invading for the glory of Islam. The warning cries of a humanitarian crisis were going off long before this recent war, from international humanitarian agencies like Unicef. Gaza was being militarily oppressed by Israel, blocking humanitarian aid, international trade, even denying access to their own waters for fishing.
Civilians were dying off already as a result of Israel, and Israel ignored the warnings, the international community ignored the warnings, and then its shocked pikachus all around as a dying people fight back for survival.
They did a little more than simply “fight back.” They also engaged in widespread and utterly gratuitous acts of violence and torture in ways that can only have been calculated to trigger an overreaction on the part of Israel. They knew exactly what they were doing and what would happen. They obviously don’t give a fuck about their own people.
Where you getting torture from?
It all started when Israel showed up on the block and forcibly removed 700000 Palestinians from their homes. There’s no history before that worth discussing as it is archeological records, not history.
Areas that were once 90% Palestinian, suddenly became 90% Jewish. Those people are still fighting to get their homes back, and Israel is continuing to evict Palestinians daily.
The first step to a solution is to recognize that Israel’s goals are to ethnically cleanse the area and then work from there.
You can point out back and forth violence going into the 1800s. Nobody has clean hands in this conflict.
You can go back much much further than the 1800s, back to the start of zionism.
There have always been Jews opposed to Zionism since the idea was created. Its almost like stealing someone elsea land is immoral.
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Lower Paleolithic is as far as some will go when dating first clashes over that same patch of land, or about 200,000 years ago.
Except jews, christians and muslims lived pretty much peacefully together during ottoman rule. The violence worsened when britian controlled palestine and then became a lot worse during the nakba and israeli occupation. It’s not about ‘having clean hands’. It’s about stopping genocide and understanding that occupation and colonialism leads to violent pushback. It always has and always will.
I dont know anything about this. We’re they all living in the same neighborhoods or we’re they in different neighborhoods in the same city or like different towns in the same Provence?
Just curious how closely bound their networks were. In my home town folks of different faiths are neighbors and mostly go to the same schools and share a government. There’s not much segregation at all. Sure, there’s racism among all groups, but it gets much weaker and much less frequent with each generation.
Oh yeah and fuck the ole British state. Bunch of tossers meddling all about so they can exploit everyone’s resources. Their emancipated colony, all-grown-up now, isn’t much better.
Wasn’t the Ottoman period occupation/colonialism too? Not that I am in favour of imperialism but you do raise a fascinating point I wasn’t aware of.
The Ottomans took control of palestine after a war with the Mamluk empire. Palestine hasn’t been and independent country for much of it’s history. It’s still a form of occupation but if you were muslim, christian or jewish you still had access to certain rights (unless you were a slave). Mostly if you were muslim.
Yeah, but siding with Israel here is the logical equivalent of siding with Andrew Jackson and supporting the Indian Removal Act as he committed genocide against the native people.
The power imbalance and how Israel has used it is what makes it imperative that Israel be held accountable by the international community.
I’m glad you bring up the power imbalance. The “both sides have been doing horrible stuff” only works if both sides have equal footing, which they clearly do not. This does not negate the crimes commited by Hamas, but extremism doesn’t come from nowhere and Israël has a responsibility in that.
Also disproportionate use of force is a war crime. We see Israel doing this in every war with Palestine since the Nakba.
Mostly it goes back to the 1940’s. There was more history of Zionism beforehand, Jewish settlers gradually coming in to live in the holy land. But after WW2 was the large influx and big push for a Jewish ethnostate. Aaand the people living there already opposed it from the start. And since then it’s been very apparent why, because Israel pushes beyond the borders they were already given from Palestinian land, and militarily occupy the Palestinian land they dont yet claim.
It was Arabs who did not accept those borders. They lost and Israel expanded.
What I have more of a problem with is the settlers in the WB and that seems to be Bibi’s doing without much pushback from USA. Fascists gonna fasche.
Why do i keep hearing it described like losing a game? Zionists invaded, murdered, and exiled palestinians from their land, that should “win” them nothing but opposition from the international community, same as happening with Russias invasion of Ukraine.
What do you mean by “it”?
I thought we were talking specifically about changes to the borders of what was given to them (irresponsibly?) by the Allies after WW2.
The 6 day war in 1967 was initiated by surrounding Arab countries. Israel won that war and expanded into the Sinai and Gaza (Egypt), Golan Heights (Syria), West Bank and East Jerusalem (Jordan). They didn’t initiate the expansion. They then returned the Sinai to Egypt.
Admittedly after that they did take more without provocation. The chipping away with settlements is happening to this very day.
I just rewatched the above video in order to spell out the details. It is all new to me. Have a look yourself if you are genuinely interested in discussing the conflict. It really is well made and easy to follow (I dunno if there are errors though).
Nothing was ever given to them, only taken. They were living there already. They did not consent to being murdered and evicted from where they lived, and predictably they fought against it. That they lost against a much larger, internationally backed army invading their land doesnt exactly persuade me that they should lose their right to living there.
Who is “them”? I was talking about the land given to Jews by the colonisers: England and France.
The 6 day war had a larger army on the Arab side. I dunno how much financial backing Israel had from USA or how it compared with the backing (if any) by the Arab oil states and I doubt you know or care either.
I am trying to learn here, but you just insist on lazy mud slinging. Blocking you.
They were never given a vote. The UN voted to take away the Palestinians’ land, and the actual people living there weren’t given a single fucking vote in the issue.
What vote? I wasn’t talking about any election and neither was blazera (who correctly said Jews were given the land).
I was talking about the 6 day war. Great animation showing the history here https://youtu.be/m19F4IHTVGc/
Timeline:
Well… kind of, but not really, not exactly that land, and the result wasn’t truly agreed upon by anyone.
That’s in 1967. Israel wasn’t “given” any land there, it used a provocation by Egypt in order to claim all of it (and have Egypt give thanks for not claiming all of Sinai too… for now).
There was also a lot of bribery and intimidation involved to get the vote to come out a certain way.
They were given the land by UN at the start of the partition. I want discussing whether it was just.
Yep, just as I said.
Didn’t say it was dune in 1967. It was given by UN straight after WW2. I was being as brief as possible.
It seems we agree on everything except the following. Hopefully you can clarify for me please…
Not explicitly AFAIK. This is my understanding…
Arabs were not OK with the UN partition but Jews were. Jews therefore understood that would mean Arabs would annul the partition as soon as the Brits exited so they declared independence from the day of the exit but I cannot find any borders mentioned. Then the Arabs really did attack.
Do you know of any borders mentioned by Jews then? Did they state “we want to be observed of the Arab partitions?” Certainly that is how it ended up but was that the plan on Independence Day? Wikipedia is vague.
The vote to create Israel in 1948
It was not Palestine at that time though and Jews always lived in the area.
I dont care that they were ottoman or british ruled, it was palestinians living there, and they opposed zionism from the beginning
This issue has nothing to do with Jews. It has to do with Zionism.
Jews have lived there peacefully, yes. They did so without stealing their neighbors land. Its the Zionists that formed Israel and stole ~40% of Palesines land that caused the war.
There have always been Jews opposed to Zionism since the idea was first thought up.
After the Nazi shit and the reluctance of the West to accept refugees I can understand why.
And look at the rise of cookers who think we live on a flat earth run by a cabal of Jewish shape-shifting lizards from the planet Nibiru. I do not think social progress by humanity is inevitable anymore.
Nazi Germany could really happen again. Just last week in Australia a judge revealed himself to be a Nazi sympathiser… https://old.reddit.com/r/auslaw/comments/17hecdx/comment/k6nuov1/
Zionism starts in the 1800s, well before the Nazi shit. The 1940’s One Million Plan actually got amended after the Holocaust by stirring up a civil war so more Jews from Arab countries would flee in fear of prosecution in order to meet the Zionist numbers, precisely because “too many” Western countries were accepting (or got forced to accept) Holocaust refugees, who were nowhere as many as previously expected (by the Zionists).
Not exactly. Genocides have been going on all the time, just the countries and ethnicities have been changing. So you could say it’s been happening all along… while the chance of the same exact combination repeating, is quite low.
Thanks for the background info.
I used to resent that Jews had a special word just for them: “antisemitism”. But now I see it might be warranted because although every migrant group gets racist pushback, it is Jews who are the target of crazy conspiracy theorists. It is Jews who are said to secretly run the world.
I am not joking about the shape-shifting lizards from the planet Nibiru. That is from David Icke who says our world leaders are those lizards.
It is thought that he is using it as a dog-whistle for Nazis (to mean Jews). Certainly there is a disproportionate crossover between Nazis and Icke supporters.
Icke also championed the 5G conspiracies, is an anti-vaxxer and thinks the moon is a hollow spaceship used by aliens to spy on us from. I can’t even…
Why doesn’t Egypt open the border?
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Because Israel will never let them back in if they leave. That is not hypothetical; it happened to thousands of Palestinians during the 6-day war, and their families are still stuck in Egypt, Syria, and Lebanon today.
It’s also because Hamas has its origins in the Muslim Brotherhood which for obvious reasons means that Egypt is very leery of accepting Palestinians from Gaza.
I’m not defending their position, just explaining it; Egypt is basically a military dictatorship at this point and the Muslim Brotherhood is enemy number one for them.
Why doesn’t Israel stop doing things that require other countries to intervene
They don’t want them either.
All the Arab world may be united in it’s hatred of Israel, but that doesn’t mean they like each other…
@Blackmist it’s not about “like” it’s about realpolitik.
2 million refugees into Egypt would be like suddenly allowing 6 million refugees into the US. Political suicide for anyone that did it.
Especially if it meant you were likely going to get a border war with a notoriously land-stealing nation as well.
Israel occupies that border too https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philadelphi_Route
Why do you think a Levantine Trail of Tears is an acceptable solution rather than ethnic cleansing?
@FaulerFuffi assuming that’s a genuine question there are a bunch of reasons and one is they don’t want to open themselves up to being attacked by Israel.
Why Egypt Won’t Open The Border To Its Palestinian Neighbours.
500 people came through recently iirc.
I do agree the Hamas attack wasn’t the start of this. However tactically it was incredibly silly, honestly what did they think would happen?
They gave Netanyahu, who was finally fumbling at the reigns after almost thirty years aan excuse to execute his wet dreams and all of Israel uniting behind him.
I see no way how they could have thought the attack would benefit their cause.
Should they have protested instead? How about in the land of the free?
I dont think people are appreciating the context of Gazans dying off. It wasnt a stable situation that was fine to continue as it was going, imagine youre locked in a room with a lunatic with a knife trying to kill you. Youre not likely to beat the lunatic, but youre gonna try, you dont have any other options.
Waiting didnt work, protests didnt work, pleading with the international community didnt work, they cant leave. Everyone keeps saying they shouldnt have fought back, but what should they have done? Nothing is not available as an option.
I appreciate that and I have equated the current war to the Warsaw ghetto uprising. I’m not an apologist.
However, as Sun Zu said, you must not interrupt your enemy when he’s making a mistake. Netanyahu’s might was failing. Israeli youth was rising up against him.
It’s not like they absolutely needed to do this right now, and they could’ve quite easily understood what the response would be (maybe not the entire extent).
Tactically it was stupid.
“Rising up” insomuch as they were protesting his proposed changes, not in that they were contemplating actually removing him from power, or even trying to oust/disband/etc Likud.
Don’t you think that, however small, some action must take form?
When I was small there were two conflicts that dividend public opinion and were sure to last centuries, those bring the Israel-Palestine conflict and the Irish one.
I think that disengaging the murder spiral makes things better. Both the resentment of the Israeli youth against their more and more fascist government was an incredibly worthwhile step.
Hamas and Likud alle don’t like any two state proposals, that’s why this is happening.
If I came into your house and drove you by force into the garage, I don’t think you’d want a “2-house solution” that allows you to live there, either.
And no, I don’t think that essentially saying, “why don’t the Palestinians wait around being killed quietly, to see if the youths protesting today will massively change Israel’s trajectory when they get into politics in 20 years?” is a reasonable, measured, or humane stance.
What authority was netanyahu losing? Or are you just referring to there being some chance of him losing an election? Because Gaza did wait and see for several elections. He was just reelected in 2022. So apparently he’s not being voted out.
The meddling with the court system had many Israelis protesting last spring.
https://abcnews.go.com/International/israeli-protests-netanyahus-judicial-reform-plan-explained/story?id=98148726
It became apparent to many how corrupt he was and trying to cement his position in anti constitutional measures.
Sure, but it wasn’t saving any Palestinians lives in the process OR the goal. Most Israelis weren’t opposing Netanyahu because they were against the Israeli genocide of Palestinians, they just didn’t like what he was doing to prevent punishment for his corruption. They wanted to replace him, but it would just be with another genocidal guy.
I don’t know. I remember both Rabin and Sharon, who briefly gave some hope in the nineties. It never materialized but it’s hope I must cling to. Just like the Irish managed to put their para military ways aside.
The sad part of this attack is that that hoe is pushed back even further.
So call me naive or a fool, but I keep hoping for a new generation that distances itself from the spiral of violence. It’s a feint hope, that got even more so due to this new horrible episode.
After closely following the Ukrainian War and learning all the nuances and history in that…I just don’t have the energy or time to do the same about a whole new conflict.
Wait until you hear about Macron’s travel to Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan to sign economic agreements… just like the EU did with Ukraine right before 2014… only this time, next week there’s going to be a new sanctions package against Russia.
Did I mention Kazakhstan borders with both Russia and China, Russia already has a recent history of “helping” a pro-Russia government stay in power by sending in troops to shoot against civilians, and China would love to build a railway through Kazakhstan and Ukraine right to the EU… with just a tiny bit of Russia lying in the way north of Georgia?
If an asteroid fell from space onto Tel Aviv, I’d be on the asteroids side. It’s not about ideology, it’s about removing a fascist ethnostate from the world.
israeli government and hamas both want never-ending war anyways. i never understood how anyone could think hamas is one valid side in this.
the goal should always be complete non-violence.
https://i.imgur.com/DS57Lrk.png
War is usually a war between STATES that has very little to do with its people. People are just the cannon fodder of the state interest.
In cases like Gaza one side actually does have PEOPLE involved, Gazans, vs a STATE. It makes it much more clear who is in the wrong.
MAS*H was an amazing show and it was moments like that that had a lasting effect on my world view. I did not realize it as a kid watching it, but I do now.
@pbjamm me too.
Also, even though it was set in Korea, it was really about Vietnam, which seems obvious now, but never occurred to me watching it as a kid.
I thought I was going to downvote this for just being an image link, however that’s a great point.
For those curious, it’s a meme-formatted exposition by Mash’s Hawkeye on why the saying ‘war is hell’ is wrong, it actually being worse then hell.
Who is on Hamas’s side? There are plenty of people on Palestine’s side, but no one really wants to be on Hamas’s side
I’ve seen plenty of contrarian tankies who are pro Hamas. Often the same “anti imperialists” who hate the West so much they think supporting Ukraine is bad.
Personally I’m of the opinion that both sides are genocidal and anybody with a clear idea what to do there is lying, but I’ve been banned from !worldnews@lemmy.ml as “genocide denial” for agreeing with Biden that we should be suspicious of the claimed death numbers coming out of Palestine because both sides have a history of lying about violent acts in their conflict.
A problem with Lemmy (and a bigger one with Reddit) is that conversations can include context and nuance, while mods don’t always can or want to take them into account, so you better make each comment stand on its own, or you can get the boot “out of the blue”.
I know a few people in real life who are referring to them as freedom fighters.
Idunno, I don’t fuss about that because I’m perfectly capable of thinking that they’re both terrorists and freedom fighters.
They’re fighting for the freedom of Gaza… but they use terrorism tactics, refuse to abide by ceasefires, and have genocidal beliefs.
Those don’t seem mutually exclusive for me.
We all contain multitudes.
But that said, somebody who goes to “freedom fighter” as their first noun for them, that’s kind of a red flag.
It’s not just that they “can” be both, it’s more that they “have to” be both.
“Freedom fighter” is a term reserved for the underdog, the one who can’t use sheer military power to terrorize a whole region (like a couple US Carrier Strike Groups with nukes) or some surrounding countries (like a US funded Israeli military with some nukes of their own). Established democracies and recognized states, can use their “military” to terrorize a whole population by just threatening to bomb the living shit out of the civilians, while “freedom fighters” can only terrorize through surprise attacks and extreme brutality… aka, by being “terrorists”.
Bottom line: all “freedom fighters” need to be “terrorists”, otherwise they’d be called “a military”.
That’s a bit harsh, what if they understand the two are synonyms? 🤷
Terrorism is a tactic, so no, not all “freedom fighters” are terrorists. There are and have been throughout history many guerrilla groups that don’t use terrorism tactics but that could still be called “freedom fighters.”
Hm… can you give an example?
Off the top of my head, all I can come up with associated with “freedom fighters”, is using both guerrilla tactics and terrorism to fight against some superior enemy. The next closest thing, are non-terrorist “freedom movements” like Gandhi’s (which comes with a separate can of worms).
The last part of what you said was what I was hoping to get at. To a few people I know, theyre freedom fighters and rebels before terrorists.
@Robin.Net
I would agree, but there are people here on Lemmy and elsewhere who don’t distinguish between Palestinian people and the Hamas. It’s like a ‘tankie’ versus ‘anti-tankie’ game, ‘us and them’, and nothing in between. If you don’t choose, each side accuses you of being the enemy.
Addition:
Just watched this interview (video + transcript). A journalist tells about his visit of tbe occupied territories in Palestine. At some point he arrives at one of the many checkpoints.
So there, even as you just walk around, you seem to be checked ‘to whom you belong’.
The selective outrage is also very telling. Palestinian civilians killed by indiscriminate bombing? Apoplectic red-faced spittle-flying fury!
Ukrainian civilians or even Syrian civilians killed by the same? Relative silence even though in both cases it was even less provoked. What’s really going on here? And I don’t mean that as a rhetorical question either; I honestly don’t know. I have a theory, but I’m not entirely confident in it just yet.
The problem is very simple. Israel and their neoliberal allies want you to think the only sides are Israel and Hamas. But you and I support the third side, the civilians. You simply have to redefine the argument. You tell them, “I am against Israel. And I’m against Hamas too. I’ve picked my side, and it’s the innocents”.
People like that: https://lemm.ee/comment/5671897
The organizations are the ones that can fuck off. It’s the people that are suffering.
I pick the “innocent Gazan civilians just trying to live their lives but keep getting murdered by disproportionate force from the IDF” side.
Fuck Hamas. Fuck the IDF.
I actually never picked sides in that conflict. Both sides are nuts, the Hamas are terrorists, the IDF commits war crimes, they are both evil.
I propose putting a wall around the whole area and wait for the noise to stop, either by them getting their acts together, or by having killed each other.
No one ever wants to try it, but I say instead of the US giving Israel money for military aid we instead give Jordan money to host the world’s largest fried chicken festival, everyone loves fried chicken. We get Israel and Palestine empty and we give them all “I ❤️ NY” shirts so no one knows where anyone else is from. While they’re all gone we completely fucking glass the “holy land.” Nuke it all so no one can live there for 200+ years.
Maybe by then the people that exist as Israeli and Palestinians can stop with their religious war bullshit over a plot of land and maybe just get on with living a “good” life.
Not long enough.
Conflict in the area has been going on for anywhere between 4000 and 200,000 years (lower paleolithic). Since the invention of writing, people of different origins have been able to transmit their religious claims to the region for thousands of years.
200 years would barely put a dent on it.
If we do that, they’ll still kill unaligned civilians