There's been a lot of concern recently about the Web Environment Integrity proposal, developed by a selection of authors from Google, and…
Apple has deployed a system called Private Access Tokens that allows web servers to verify if a device is legitimate before granting access. This works by having the browser request a signed token from Apple proving the device is approved. While this currently has limited impact due to Safari’s market share, there are concerns that attestation systems restrict competition, user control, and innovation by only approving certain devices and software. Attestation could lead to approved providers tightening rules over time, blocking modified operating systems and browsers. While proponents argue for holdbacks to limit blocking, business pressures may make that infeasible and Google’s existing attestation does not do holdbacks. Fundamentally, attestation is seen as anti-competitive by potentially blocking competition between browsers and operating systems on the web.
If a website doesn’t want me to see their shit, then I guess i won’t see their shit. I already have some sites that don’t work because of my aggressive use of lists on my pihole, in addition to the usual browser plugins. If a site doesn’t work now, I just move on. I don’t give a shit about any site enough to put up with this type of bullshit.
To see how your approach works, try using the Internet with Javascript turned off for reading text. You will realize you can’t organize your life nowadays without bowing to what websites do technically.
What if it’s your bank’s website? Or email provider? Or literally anything else you actually have to choose and can’t pick? “It’s okay because I don’t think it affects me / I can ignore it” is always a bad reason to allow a bad thing happen.
How do you “fucking go in” to an online bank? And why are you being so aggressive about a simple question? Getting tired of people still acting like redditors here.
Every time I’ve ever looked into it or read anything on the topic it’s been like “do not do this. I lost my father, my children, two wives, and all my Pokemon cards in this endeavour, but in case you don’t want to listen, here’s how I partially successfully hosted my own email server for three months…”
It’s not that bad but definitely not a solution for everyone. And you probably still don’t want to do it for your primary mail unless you’re otherwise extremely well versed in doing so, up to and including running multiple servers for redundancy.
Not exactly. Having a running software is one thing, not having your emails be blocked by everyone because you’re not a trusted host is another. That another is a deal breaker and a huge pain in the ass, even though it helps fighting spam
Jokes on you. It refuses to work as my phone configuration is not approved by our corporate overlords.
And yeah, obviously you can go to the bank at any moment, there are no times whatsoever when you need to do something right now, without lets say leaving the cash register at the shop
And that’s not even getting into how banks worldwide have been cutting down on staff numbers for years, and directing people to just their apps instead.
And how the fuck is a phone app an alternative for avoiding attestation??? A phone app is inherently attested by being distributed through the app store.
On a rooted phone, they can still fail attestation, apparently. That’s why Magisk Hide (or whatever it’s called) became a thing, to hide that the device is rooted. Google Pay also apparently needs Magisk Hide to function.
I don’t trust my phone to store my payment details, so I don’t care about Google Pay, and my bank’s app works fine while rooted, so I don’t have any personal experience with it, just what I’ve seen in every single root guide I’ve used in at least the last 4 years (if not longer; I don’t remember how I rooted my previous phone.)
Yeah, joke’s on the commenter; Google had had device attestation for phones for ages now and it’s also terrible. Many apps will outright refuse to work if you have a non-typical phone (rooted, some obscure hardware or custom OS).
It’s pretty shitty for a company to force someone to use a phone app or go to something as vital as a bank just because they won’t let the customer access the website. And there are plenty of reasons why someone wouldn’t be able to go to the bank in person every time they needed to, or at least it’d be extremely inconvenient to (especially for small things like checking your balance or transactions). Not everyone has a phone either.
Change your email provider? Run your own email like people should?
I’ve never deleted my email before but I’m pretty sure that means losing access to your entire inbox that you’ve likely had for years and having to update your contacts, the emails for all the accounts you have under it, etc. And being blocked from the website means you won’t be able to do any of those things through the official website. Does device atteststion prevent you from accessing your email through third party clients?
I rarely do, but when I do it’s for something a bit specific, like ordering/depositing foreign currency (for travel) or depositing large checks that exceed the online deposit limit (which again is extremely rare). For everything else, it’s online only, especially since every time I go in, there’s only one teller working and the line is super long.
This is true. However, I don’t see this happening as the website/browser isn’t really the problem with online banking, it’s more often the user.
On another note, how about no access at all, because this is a freaking huge attack surface for (D)DOS. Imagine you just invalidate signatures of all traffic to and from an attestation service. You could almost stop countries from functioning. That’s a serious vulnerability which we can easily do without.
Cannot confirm, somewhat. Setting it up so you don’t get blocked is rather easy, figuring out how to do that correctly is a bit of a pain though (I only managed to correctly set things up once I started using Mailcow and their built in DNS check tool)
The domain still lands on some blacklists but that is down to one ISP blanket banning any mail servers in the IP block my ISP rotates my IP through.
Unfortunately google is aggressive at spam filtering. For example when I signed up for bookwormstory.social the confirmation mail was sent straight to spam automatically (I had to fish it out and mark it not as spam) 😔
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If a website doesn’t want me to see their shit, then I guess i won’t see their shit. I already have some sites that don’t work because of my aggressive use of lists on my pihole, in addition to the usual browser plugins. If a site doesn’t work now, I just move on. I don’t give a shit about any site enough to put up with this type of bullshit.
To see how your approach works, try using the Internet with Javascript turned off for reading text. You will realize you can’t organize your life nowadays without bowing to what websites do technically.
You can’t use websites when you disable a major piece of functionality? Shocker
Why would Javascript be a major piece of functionality for a website that is based on text articles?
I had to stop using my car insurance app because it started requiring location information to open.
We need to fight against this and stop this from happening before it’s too late.
Fight how?
Seriously—the consequences are going to be very extreme very quickly if we don’t actively fight against this
What if it’s your bank’s website? Or email provider? Or literally anything else you actually have to choose and can’t pick? “It’s okay because I don’t think it affects me / I can ignore it” is always a bad reason to allow a bad thing happen.
removed by mod
How do you “fucking go in” to an online bank? And why are you being so aggressive about a simple question? Getting tired of people still acting like redditors here.
This isn’t a practical suggestion for the vast majority of the population.
I have both my own email server and an additional paid email provider. not expensive and has very nice functionality in terms of sync, aliases, etc.
If they now said I needed some 3rd party bullshit to access their site, I would quit paying them. There are tons of these smaller businesses.
I doubt they will just be like “oh well, guess i’ll die, Daddy Google said so”
What i’m saying is, it doesn’t have to be google OR become a tech wizard. There is a middle path that just costs a dollar.
Honestly, if you’re telling people to run their own email host, you’re either trolling or a moron.
Yeah, because not only is it viable, they absolutely never get blocked! lol
Every time I’ve ever looked into it or read anything on the topic it’s been like “do not do this. I lost my father, my children, two wives, and all my Pokemon cards in this endeavour, but in case you don’t want to listen, here’s how I partially successfully hosted my own email server for three months…”
It’s not that bad but definitely not a solution for everyone. And you probably still don’t want to do it for your primary mail unless you’re otherwise extremely well versed in doing so, up to and including running multiple servers for redundancy.
Most of that is about Exchange. Because Microsoft software is always garbage.
Not exactly. Having a running software is one thing, not having your emails be blocked by everyone because you’re not a trusted host is another. That another is a deal breaker and a huge pain in the ass, even though it helps fighting spam
These days you can spin up a docker container with all the email trust stuff preconfigured
It’s so fucking easy to do so. Even run it off a rented host.
You do realize the vast majority of people would need you to explain what a “rented host” is, then they still wouldn’t comprehend it.
There’s no need to be so nasty, friend. I’m removing your comment because this isn’t the in line with our community value of ‘be(e) nice’
Thank you. I was just thinking about that!
Jokes on you. It refuses to work as my phone configuration is not approved by our corporate overlords. And yeah, obviously you can go to the bank at any moment, there are no times whatsoever when you need to do something right now, without lets say leaving the cash register at the shop
And that’s not even getting into how banks worldwide have been cutting down on staff numbers for years, and directing people to just their apps instead.
And how the fuck is a phone app an alternative for avoiding attestation??? A phone app is inherently attested by being distributed through the app store.
On a rooted phone, they can still fail attestation, apparently. That’s why Magisk Hide (or whatever it’s called) became a thing, to hide that the device is rooted. Google Pay also apparently needs Magisk Hide to function.
I don’t trust my phone to store my payment details, so I don’t care about Google Pay, and my bank’s app works fine while rooted, so I don’t have any personal experience with it, just what I’ve seen in every single root guide I’ve used in at least the last 4 years (if not longer; I don’t remember how I rooted my previous phone.)
Yeah, joke’s on the commenter; Google had had device attestation for phones for ages now and it’s also terrible. Many apps will outright refuse to work if you have a non-typical phone (rooted, some obscure hardware or custom OS).
It’s pretty shitty for a company to force someone to use a phone app or go to something as vital as a bank just because they won’t let the customer access the website. And there are plenty of reasons why someone wouldn’t be able to go to the bank in person every time they needed to, or at least it’d be extremely inconvenient to (especially for small things like checking your balance or transactions). Not everyone has a phone either.
I’ve never deleted my email before but I’m pretty sure that means losing access to your entire inbox that you’ve likely had for years and having to update your contacts, the emails for all the accounts you have under it, etc. And being blocked from the website means you won’t be able to do any of those things through the official website. Does device atteststion prevent you from accessing your email through third party clients?
Also, it’s not exactly easy or practical to host your own email. And for many people that would mean spending money on servers. I read a blog post last year of someone who gave up hosting their own email after 23 years doing so.
I’m moving over to a more professional email now, and it’s a huge pain. A password manager helps a lot.
Good luck with that in Denmark.
https://www.google.com/maps/search/bank/@55.6507769,9.3243604,8z/data=!4m2!2m1!6e2?entry=ttu
For most services you will be referred to the web or app. Also you pretty much can’t insert cash to your account anymore
Also, most banks (and other service provider) add additional fees for counter service, since you can do it online…
Not talking about the “opening hours”…
Who the fuck goes into a bank in this day and age?
Shit most branches I see are closing down.
I rarely do, but when I do it’s for something a bit specific, like ordering/depositing foreign currency (for travel) or depositing large checks that exceed the online deposit limit (which again is extremely rare). For everything else, it’s online only, especially since every time I go in, there’s only one teller working and the line is super long.
This is true. However, I don’t see this happening as the website/browser isn’t really the problem with online banking, it’s more often the user.
On another note, how about no access at all, because this is a freaking huge attack surface for (D)DOS. Imagine you just invalidate signatures of all traffic to and from an attestation service. You could almost stop countries from functioning. That’s a serious vulnerability which we can easily do without.
This hasn’t been practical for a while now. If you’re not on a major domain, Google, MS, etc will block you as likely spam.
Cannot confirm, somewhat. Setting it up so you don’t get blocked is rather easy, figuring out how to do that correctly is a bit of a pain though (I only managed to correctly set things up once I started using Mailcow and their built in DNS check tool)
The domain still lands on some blacklists but that is down to one ISP blanket banning any mail servers in the IP block my ISP rotates my IP through.
Unfortunately google is aggressive at spam filtering. For example when I signed up for bookwormstory.social the confirmation mail was sent straight to spam automatically (I had to fish it out and mark it not as spam) 😔
We’re not allowing it. We don’t have a choice.
Well you can protest, inform others, switch browsers, make your family switch…
It’s not easy and might not accomplish much but at least you’re trying.
We won’t be allowed to switch browsers any more. That’s the whole problem.
That’s how I react to Twitter and Facebook requiring login to even view most things.
Whatever you’re showing isn’t important enough to be worth me making an account.